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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-30-2013, 11:38 AM   #626
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

CM gains some respect JY confirmed freerolling people /thread
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:38 AM   #627
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
WTF are you talking about??? Asani's timeline indicates your boy was free rolling CM all along. And many of us do hope that this fact does change CM's mind about this whole cluster ****. And dude, you should take it down a notch. I'm not saying that you are starting to come across like a scumbug desperate for his money. But you are flirting with that line when you conveniently skip over the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
Way to skip over the facts again. Oh and if CM is willing to pay this extortion money out, I would hope you are not the only beneficiary. Lets hope many more of JY's victims come forward to claim their piece of the settlement. There is absolutely no reason you should be first in line or get the largest slice. Why not pay off Asanni in full first????

Relax sniper. This isn't the military, we aren't samurais.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:38 AM   #628
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I don't get how sheets is catching flak here. Seems he's been 100% open about everything itt.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:41 AM   #629
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
10000% agree with this.
Then you are not flirting with the scumbag line, and I apologize.

But the point you made on the phone is valid. CM can't simply pay you three players. Because if you three owe other people money, then CM should pay them instead. And so on and so on. Its simply a never ending line of degens looking for $. And who knows, maybe in that group of degens, is someone who owes Moneymaker. In that case, he should keep the money. **** JY and keep the money or give it to Gamblers Anonymous. It would be better spent there anyway.

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Originally Posted by andrewga View Post
Relax sniper. This isn't the military, we aren't samurais.
Thanks for the advice. now you can go back to critiquing analogies.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:42 AM   #630
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Sheets comes off just fine in this thread. He posted what he knew. Nothing more. He even said before posting that he could be biased since he was owed money. JY comes off real bad. If you cant pay someone 2k- how would you ever pay Chris if he ran it up?

You couldnt.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:46 AM   #631
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrochu View Post
I don't get how sheets is catching flak here. Seems he's been 100% open about everything itt.
Its all good. Everyone needs to take some flak from time to time.
I try to be as honest and objective as possible but in a situation like this it just is going to come off bad.

I can take the flak its fine
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:51 AM   #632
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

What if I promised that if I were paid 8000, then 5000 would be donated to GA, and 3000 would be $ added in a special tournament held just for people who posted in this thread?

Or maybe use that $3000 and host a party in NYC?

One time?

Anwyay....I missed this place. Hope I didn't do more damage than I helped.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:04 PM   #633
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
What if I promised that if I were paid 8000, then 5000 would be donated to GA, and 3000 would be $ added in a special tournament held just for people who posted in this thread?

Or maybe use that $3000 and host a party in NYC?

One time?

Anwyay....I missed this place. Hope I didn't do more damage than I helped.
I'd say I'm glad I've posted in this thread, and I imagine your objections will be few.

I for one am easily bought.

What if MM just donates your 8k to GA or chosen charity?
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:05 PM   #634
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Posting ITT for special tournament entry.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:05 PM   #635
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Cliffs:
Chris didnt want to get extorted and thought JY was wrong
JY was wrong and Chris was successfully extorted
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:07 PM   #636
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Or better yet, MM sticks the 8K on a game this weekend. Split the winnings. I know a good bookie if interested?
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:13 PM   #637
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
Totally agree.....If Chris does not feel he owes any money, he shouldn't pay Jason's debts.

sheets (bully)

p.s. GEE THANKS ALOT JASON FOR CALLING MY ATTENTION TO THIS THREAD AND ASKING ME TO POST WHAT I KNEW. I am going to vote 1000 times against you in the poll just for spite
SHEETS CONFIRMED MULTIACCOUNTING 2P2!!!

Last edited by CoronalDischarge; 10-30-2013 at 12:14 PM. Reason: thread keeps on giving
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:17 PM   #638
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

This whole mess could've been avoided if Jason had just asked the 2+2 community to donate to the opening of his restaurant like Cyndy Violette.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:21 PM   #639
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I'm clearly just as biased as Sheets in this situation but skimming the thread, it is pretty comical to read some of the responses. It's no surprise people like putting down others and stirring up gossip for no other benefit than their own. It's NVG, I get it.

I'm not entirely sure on the details of the Assani situation, but I would venture to say that the majority of poker pros could be ruled insolvent if this situation were the precedent.

I mainly came here to say similar things Sheets has said about JY during the situation. He easily could have told us to f off and that would be that. I would have made a thread or at least a post in the relevant forum/thread letting people know of the situation. Is that his motivation for staying in contact and wanting to make this right? Possibly. But I can tell you that he has been in contact throughout the whole ordeal fully knowing his financial situation, even before I entertained that thought.

It is a frustrating situation for all parties, no one is arguing against that. However, I am relatively sure that JY shouldn't be crucified because his wings appetizer comes with 8 wings instead of the standard 10.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:29 PM   #640
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
Apparently you didn't bother reading assani's post.




This still doesn't prove Jason was insolvent at the time of the bet. Looks like Assani didn't really make much of effort to collect until early 2013. Jason also didn't make much of an effort to pay this bet. The only thing this proves is that both are pretty lazy.

Either way, if Chris' action was being booked by a third party Jason's financial situation is irrelevant.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even if Jason was 100% broke in April and Assani knew this, it wouldn't have been known to Chris and therefore wouldn't have had a reason not to pay. According to Chris he was tipped of back in April 2012 yet he hasn't proven any of this. How difficult is it to bring in 1 of 3 people?

If that 18k guy cam in then yeah, Jason would look like a complete scumbag.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:32 PM   #641
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK87 View Post
He easily could have told us to f off and that would be that.
why would he tell you guys to f off? that makes him instant scumbag.

way better to say "Moneymaker owes me 25k that I'm working on getting..." Holds you guys off for a yr or 2. He looks like he is trying to do the right thing. Another freeroll for him.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:38 PM   #642
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Ok I've read through this entire thread, my thoughts:

To put simply, Chris pay him the money.

Your defence to paying him seems to be that you received notice from other players subsequent to losing the bet in question that Jason owes them money and you feel that you are being freerolled.

Well let me just say that if you were stupid enough to make the bet in the first place and lose without doing the due dilligence on Jason (that is, to check his losing payments were up-to-date with other players as much as you could) then it is your responsibility to pay him and it's the responsibility of the other players that are owed money by Jason to pursue him for that money. You are not in a position to take a stand or the high moral ground.

As far as you were aware when you took his credit at the time you made the losing bet, you believed that he was dependable and it is irrelevant that afterwards you became aware that he potentially owed money to other players.

It is also unreasonable for you to later say that he shouldn't get his money because he was in no position to pay me if I had won if I knew about this information of players not being paid before making the bet.

Again you made the mistake by placing a bet with him without checking his priors and you're not in a position to handle how he should pay his creditors.
I largely agree with this. If you don't do due diligence beforehand, the burden of proof is HEAVILY on you to prove your entire bet was intended as nothing but fraud. This hasn't been established in any way.


Incidentally, Chris's comment that he paid back 2K in money he didn't owe (huh??) strains his credibly even further.

So he is wiling to pay 2K he is sure he doesn't owe, but balks at baying a larger amount he thinks he might be able to get out of based on estimating the other party's liquidity (a dubious proposition at best).

Finally.. delaying the payment 'to investigate' doesn't pass the smell test. Many parties mentioned escrowing the payment, or at least a token amount as reasonable standard in this kind of situation. In addition to the obvious conflict of interest the effect of refusing payment can spiral into a direct attack on said party's credibility when the middleman is caught in a cash crunch.

As a metaphor, its like a bank refusing to honor a home loan, and pointing to the subsequent foreclosure as proof that the owner would have been at fault.

This is not a debate Chris is likely to win in an open forum, and I suggest he settles.

Last edited by monikrazy; 10-30-2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: I see a settlement has been reached, linking the post about it in the OP might be helpful
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:43 PM   #643
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xalas View Post
Has Jason contacted you since you posted here?
yes. Unless he specifically asks me to keep certain info private(a request that I will grant if I think its reasonable) then I will post updates when they become available.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AK87 View Post
I'm not entirely sure on the details of the Assani situation, but I would venture to say that the majority of poker pros could be ruled insolvent if this situation were the precedent.
post #543 should explain everything fairly clearly


Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned4lyfe View Post
This still doesn't prove Jason was insolvent at the time of the bet. Looks like Assani didn't really make much of effort to collect until early 2013. Jason also didn't make much of an effort to pay this bet. The only thing this proves is that both are pretty lazy.
I did not include 2p2 PMs.

On 4/26/12 I sent this PM on 2p2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher
I used this site to calculate the no-vig on +195/-218 and got 202.21, so you owe me $2022. I have BoA- let me know what info you need to send it. I'd also like to bet on the Caps at no vig in the 2nd round if you're interested.

Then on 12/23/12:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher
We had a NHL bet that you never settled up on. Please let me know how you intend to pay this. I can provide links/more details if you don't recall it.

I also believe that I tried to email him(through 2p2- theres an option for that), but there is no record of that. Its also possible that I sent more 2p2 PMs, as my mailbox is always in the upper 90% so I have to clean it out every now and then.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:52 PM   #644
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
If you don't do due diligence beforehand, the burden of proof is HEAVILY on you to prove your entire bet was intended as nothing but fraud. This hasn't been established in any way.
So, MM was supposed to ask for and receive full financials on both Jason and the now apparently imaginary bookie before placing bets?

FWIW, I don't think that MM needs to prove that if he had won the bet that Jason intended to defraud him. All he needs to prove is that Jason did not have enough cash on hand to pay of his bet had he won--and I think that the evidence in this thread proves this pretty convincingly.

I don't know whether Jason is a scam-artist or not (even though his apparent lie about the "bookie" undermines his credibility)...maybe he's just another lying degen who uses magical thinking to cover potential bad outcomes instead of solid money management.
 
Old 10-30-2013, 12:56 PM   #645
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Anyone find it ironic that Jason Young asked Assani to escrow or be vouched for in order to bet with him and Jason Young ends up not being credible and doesnt pay.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:12 PM   #646
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I think it speaks volumes that JY disappeared from thread. If he were innocent he'd be in here defending himself.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:17 PM   #647
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Sam341 View Post
I think it speaks volumes that JY disappeared from thread. If he were innocent he'd be in here defending himself.
Why? He has zero incentive to make any additional posts once the deal is made.
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:20 PM   #648
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrChesspain View Post
So, MM was supposed to ask for and receive full financials on both Jason and the now apparently imaginary bookie before placing bets?

FWIW, I don't think that MM needs to prove that if he had won the bet that Jason intended to defraud him. All he needs to prove is that Jason did not have enough cash on hand to pay of his bet had he won--and I think that the evidence in this thread proves this pretty convincingly.

I don't know whether Jason is a scam-artist or not (even though his apparent lie about the "bookie" undermines his credibility)...maybe he's just another lying degen who uses magical thinking to cover potential bad outcomes instead of solid money management.
The two main issues that led me to believe CM was more in the wrong than Jason were:

1. Postponing payment indefinitely without escrow -a few weeks to check that you aren't getting scammed is reasonable.

2. Confronting Jason's associates and prying into his debts instead of (or at least before) confronting him about additionally booki information/solvency.


To a certain extent, Like I said in my earlier post, its like a bank refusing to honor a home loan, and pointing to the subsequent foreclosure as proof that the owner would have been at fault.

So even though Jason's evidence that he both intended to and was capable of honoring the bet appear tenous, Chris's actions seemed to suggest he was acting with less than good faith in the immediate aftermath.

It is entirely possible that Jason came out of this better than he deserved, but it is difficult case for Chris to establish this late, and given his reactions to the payment he was asked for.

Quote:
jason has been around the poker world a long time and I couldn't find one person he has wronged outside of this situation. Based on that I am paying the money
I think this is a very principled way to end this and I commend MM for trying to end this with good faith.

Last edited by monikrazy; 10-30-2013 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:22 PM   #649
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YappingYoda View Post
So let me get this straight. By Chris's logic, if I owe Visa money for my credit card bill, and Visa owes China money from a loan that it took out but refuses to pay back, I have no obligation to pay my Visa bill (even though I owe the money) until Visa agrees to pays back China??? Visa's dealings with China have nothing to do with me, I owe Visa money, not China. I thought you were an accountant Chris? That's just screwed up gambler's logic.
this isn't remotely the same thing. in this scenario you borrowed money from visa, they did not free roll you, if they owe 1000 companies money they refuse to pay back it's irrelevant. either way you got what you borrowed and now you owe.



in the chris jason scenario chris made a bet he couldn't have collected had it won,he was free rolled and shouldnt owe jack****.

even if jason was honest in the past it's beyond obvious he got in way over his head and can't even pay off 1k bets. it doesnt seem like he set out to rip people off, but he lost more than he could pay so he was hoping he would get out of the hole by having people lose bigger bets to him.

2 years or whatever later and he stll has excuses for not paying assani 2k. 2p2 got shut down so ****ing what. if you really intend to pay someone back you don't ignore their emails and you try and contact them.it wouldnt have been too difficult for him to make a new 2p2 account,message asani and say it's jason I have that 2k i owe you.
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Old 10-30-2013, 02:53 PM   #650
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbracco View Post
I also would strongly recommend CM to not pay. What's the rush? Kilowatt is spot on here imo and while sheets is innocent in this matter, you have no obligation to pay Jason's debt to him.

Make Jason answer the relevant questions and prove he wasn't freerolling you, and then pay him.
this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrochu View Post
I don't get how sheets is catching flak here. Seems he's been 100% open about everything itt.
and this.

(posting to get in on the freeroll tourney obv!)
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