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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-29-2013, 07:32 PM   #551
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

It's more just Chris resolving the matter....Jason still has some ppl to owe after Chris pays the money to them. Its hard to say for a fact whether Chris would have gotten paid had he won 25k from Jason(very unlikely as Jason can't pay these other ppl) so he def got freerolled to some point, prolly should get a discount in what he owes.
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Old 10-29-2013, 07:50 PM   #552
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Mm was making bets over $5k each. He easily could have won or lost in excess of $50k in a given week.

Where was this money coming from if he went on a big winning streak.

People owed way smaller amounts of $2k (assani) and 8k (sheets) to name a few haven't been paid in over a year.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:02 PM   #553
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Haven't read all of the posts, so apologies if this has been mentioned. (Looks like its been resolved to both parties' satisfaction in any event)

Is anyone else concerned about potential (mis)uses of the precedent MM might have set by not paying? Less scrupulous people might make bets with people that they know have large outstanding debts to others, planning to not pay and cite Moneymaker's decision that he doesn't owe anything as part of the justification.

I definitely don't think Jason should receive one cent from Chris (to me, the only other acceptable solution is paying some portion or all
of MM's bet amount to JY's "creditors") until what he owes other people is settled or mostly settled. Regardless, just wanted to point out the potential precedent problem here.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:03 PM   #554
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger View Post
Jason's "oh twoplustwo got shut down I don't know what happened to it" defense is pretty hilarious.
I wonder if that works in other situations? Can I not pay my mortgage if the banking website is down? That would be super.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Platinum View Post
I think this is a little over-the-top. He isn't required to disclose such personal information to a message board regardless of the circumstances.
Hmmm
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:09 PM   #555
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejoker View Post
Mm was making bets over $5k each. He easily could have won or lost in excess of $50k in a given week.

Where was this money coming from if he went on a big winning streak.

People owed way smaller amounts of $2k (assani) and 8k (sheets) to name a few haven't been paid in over a year.
What bugs me a bit is why was Jason playing a $5,300 tournament just two months ago
He had had his debts to settled up first.
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2013/0...winn-16162.htm
imo he should pay his debts no matter how small prior to any poker or any other bets, when he is back in the black then he can gamble but not before then.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:17 PM   #556
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
This is a complete mess, and the "resolution" was terrible.

Here are my conclusions:

1. There was no bookie. Jason was booking the bets himself. This thread is now 35 pages long. Jason has dodged all questions about the bookie, including requests to privately name the bookie to a trusted third party. It is reasonably certain by Jason's lack of response here, along with the general suspicious nature of the entire situation, that there was no third-party bookie.


2. Jason did not have the money to cover the bet when Chris placed it. It is unclear of the reason for this. It had to be one of three things:

-- a) This was an outright scam/freeroll, born out of desperation to get out of a huge financial mess.

-- b) This was a "middling" or "make guaranteed juice" situation, where Jason got someone else to take the reverse Chris' action, perhaps at a worse line, and then the whole thing collapsed when Chris couldn't/wouldn't pay.

-- c) Jason did not set out to scam Chris, but was simply booking too much action that he couldn't cover, unrealsitically telling himself that somehow he would eventually pay everyone if he lost. This is what I call "The Lindgren Excuse", and while more noble than outright scamming/freerolling, is still pretty scummy.

If I had to guess, I would say that "c" above is what really happened.


3) Chris also did not have the money at the time the bet was made. I believe that Chris believed a staking deal was coming in the near future, and would be able to cover it somehow through that if he lost. When the staking deal fell through, Chris was probably unable to pay the $20k, and rather than snap-pay Jason as he would have if flush with money, probably decided to research the situation a bit more before paying. Once he found that Jason also did not have the money to back the bet, and in fact appeared to have lied about the bookie, Chris felt justified not to pay him at all. Obviously this also means Chris was not completely innocent in this situation, either. However, the difference is that Chris bet the money as himself (with Jason's full knowledge and ability to ascertain his financial health), while Jason bet the money as a fictitious person (which is fraudulent).


4) The biggest winners here are Jason's creditors -- sheets, et all. They were probably coming close to writing off this money as uncollectible. Now they will be likely be getting paid -- at least partially -- fairly soon, and via an unrelated third party! Talk about pennies from heaven!


5) The second-biggest winner here is Jason. He likely created a fake "reputable" bookie to take large sportsbets, booked the action himself with money he didn't have, and somehow is able to get one of his winning bets paid in full! He doesn't make out quite as well as his creditors, as he simply is having debt erased rather than any kind of cash infusion (the thing he really wanted), but that's still a great result when you were freerolling/lying and got caught.


6) The loser here is Chris. He pretty much lost in every way here. Now a large group of 2+2 readers know that he is a broke sportsbetting degen. Some now believe him to be a shady character, who tries to weasel out of bets. And worst yet, despite all of that, he's still out 20k! Wow! This couldn't have ended worse for him.


I still believe Chris was in the right, simply because he bet with a fictitious third party, and you cannot owe a fictitious entity money. Once that was discovered, the bet should have been immediately considered null and void. Furthermore, Jason himself clearly didn't have the money to cover it at the time, so he was being both lied to and freerolled. Even if Chris was somewhat freerolling himself, that isn't material here, because he lost the bet. Had the bet fallen the other way, it would be a much tougher call, since at least Jason's bet would have been with a real person (Chris).
Chris again, I repeat, you should not pay. You are not culpable for sheets and others debts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post
I'm the friend who is owed money. I was in Toronto during the NHL playoffs(April 2012), and since everyone there loves hockey I decided to make a bet on my home team, the Washington Capitals. Here are our posts:


My response on 8/9/13:


and then I never heard from him again.
Which confirms what I been saying. Jason can't even pay off 1k bets, you were being free rolled, he can't name the bookie, he has been fabricating a lot and has been using his "name" to take bets and pocket cash of losers - with no intention of paying the winners.

scum.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:27 PM   #557
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Were the bets placed online, through a third party, or directly thru jason himself. If the latter, then I think its fairly obvious he was actually the book for the bets.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:28 PM   #558
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOfSpeed View Post
Is anyone else concerned about potential (mis)uses of the precedent MM might have set by not paying? Less scrupulous people might make bets with people that they know have large outstanding debts to others, planning to not pay and cite Moneymaker's decision that he doesn't owe anything as part of the justification.
What could go wrong?
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:45 PM   #559
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Poll with in a poll

[ ] I actually read this thread

[x] You've got to be kidding
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:52 PM   #560
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I had to create an account so I could post here before my head exploded. I am SO PISSED that Moneymaker paid this scumbag! I met so many people in my gambling years like JY. They don't pay people, but when people don't pay them they rat on them. 99% of gambling always turns out bad. Jason was obviously the "boss". This whole thread sickens me. I'm surprised more people aren't commenting on how he is supposed to be a reputable business owner at the Turn in Suffern NY.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:22 PM   #561
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

The Turn
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:57 PM   #562
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

So let me get this straight. By Chris's logic, if I owe Visa money for my credit card bill, and Visa owes China money from a loan that it took out but refuses to pay back, I have no obligation to pay my Visa bill (even though I owe the money) until Visa agrees to pays back China??? Visa's dealings with China have nothing to do with me, I owe Visa money, not China. I thought you were an accountant Chris? That's just screwed up gambler's logic.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:00 PM   #563
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YappingYoda View Post
So let me get this straight. By Chris's logic, if I owe Visa money for my credit card bill, and Visa owes China money from a loan that it took out but refuses to pay back, I have no obligation to pay my Visa bill (even though I owe the money) until Visa agrees to pays back China??? Visa's dealings with China have nothing to do with me, I owe Visa money, not China. I thought you were an accountant Chris? That's just screwed up gambler's logic.
This man knows logic.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:02 PM   #564
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YappingYoda View Post
So let me get this straight. By Chris's logic, if I owe Visa money for my credit card bill, and Visa owes China money from a loan that it took out but refuses to pay back, I have no obligation to pay my Visa bill (even though I owe the money) until Visa agrees to pays back China??? Visa's dealings with China have nothing to do with me, I owe Visa money, not China. I thought you were an accountant Chris? That's just screwed up gambler's logic.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:12 PM   #565
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YappingYoda View Post
So let me get this straight. By Chris's logic, if I owe Visa money for my credit card bill, and Visa owes China money from a loan that it took out but refuses to pay back, I have no obligation to pay my Visa bill (even though I owe the money) until Visa agrees to pays back China??? Visa's dealings with China have nothing to do with me, I owe Visa money, not China. I thought you were an accountant Chris? That's just screwed up gambler's logic.
No this isn't by Chris's logic, this is by your logic which would be better suited for the worst analogies on 2p2 thread.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:15 PM   #566
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I also would strongly recommend CM to not pay. What's the rush? Kilowatt is spot on here imo and while sheets is innocent in this matter, you have no obligation to pay Jason's debt to him.

Make Jason answer the relevant questions and prove he wasn't freerolling you, and then pay him.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:19 PM   #567
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbracco View Post
No this isn't by Chris's logic, this is by your logic which would be better suited for the worst analogies on 2p2 thread.
How so? Chris owed someone money and didn't want to pay. It's irrelevant how much or to who that person owes money to, Chris should have paid as soon as he owed the money. Maybe I should type slowly so you can understand me.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:23 PM   #568
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YappingYoda View Post
How so? Chris owed someone money and didn't want to pay. It's irrelevant how much or to who that person owes money to, Chris should have paid as soon as he owed the money. Maybe I should type slowly so you can understand me.
Here is why your analogy is terrible.

In your example, Visa provided a service for Chris (loaning money on credit to a vendor for goods purchased by Chris). Chris owes money to Visa.

In this thread, Chris gambled money with Jason Young, and Jason Young was never going to pay Chris if he had won. Taking money and not giving back. There was no service exchange. Just the possibility of Chris giving free money to Jason Young. Never Jason Young paying Chris money. That is not a service, that is a scam.

Do you understand why your analogy is bad?
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:27 PM   #569
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbracco View Post
I also would strongly recommend CM to not pay. What's the rush? Kilowatt is spot on here imo and while sheets is innocent in this matter, you have no obligation to pay Jason's debt to him.

Make Jason answer the relevant questions and prove he wasn't freerolling you, and then pay him.
This - wait a while - why pay if you were being freerolled?
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:33 PM   #570
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YappingYoda View Post
How so? Chris owed someone money and didn't want to pay. It's irrelevant how much or to who that person owes money to, Chris should have paid as soon as he owed the money. Maybe I should type slowly so you can understand me.
lol you get 3 responses in ~10 minutes saying your logic is terrible and you don't even stop to think through it yourself.

A more accurate, but still not great analogy would be you owe money for your Visa bill, let's say you bought a couch from a furniture store using your Visa card. It turns out Visa is insolvent and owes a ton of money to China. When the furniture store goes to collect payment for the couch, Visa can't pay them, your couch is repossessed. The end of the month comes around, your Visa bill says you owe $800 for the couch, do you pay it? Of course not. It's still not a good analogy, because it interjects a 4th party (the furniture store) that doesn't exist in the JY-CM-Sheets situation, but it's a lot more reasonable than the one you posted.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:44 PM   #571
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assani Fisher View Post

Then on 8/8/13 you finally responded via email:

Quote:
What's going on man- I didn't have any emails hopefully we finally touch base- hadn't been back on 2+2 since the site crashed don't even have my log in info at this point. Opened a business and had a baby in the past year- liquid $ is tight at the moment but I obv you... Moneymaker owes me 25k that I'm working on getting he's supposed to be shipping $ off stars at the next ept whenever that is. So gimme a few weeks to see how that pans out and if he doesn't come through ill ship something over to ya to just get the ball rolling. I literally am working 7 days 16+ hours a day at my restaurant and spend all of the other time with my daughter so when I know you got this ill shoot u my # so u can just text me cuz I'm not always checking email etc
If I were Moneymaker this would send me thru the roof.

1. It's another person who isn't getting paid.

2. Chris is being blamed for Assani not getting paid.

3. I'd also be pissed for even being named and outed for how much I owe.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:53 PM   #572
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
I think that is a huge exaggeration. I known a couple agents who act as middle men/runners/beards/mules/etc.



This is a really bad decision on your part. You shouldn't pay other people's debts.

Of course you are going to feel obligated when talking to sheets (who wants to get paid) and jason (who by all accounts is either a scammer or not very forward thinking).
Maybe you should have heeded my advice a little bit more

Very reasonable outcome. Congrats to MM in particular for doing the decent thing by the people that are owed money by JY.
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:01 PM   #573
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

the restaurant is in his twitter profile, quote from one of the reviews:

"the place is beautiful, it's a shame that the management is so bad"
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:02 PM   #574
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOfSpeed View Post

Is anyone else concerned about potential (mis)uses of the precedent MM might have set by not paying? Less scrupulous people might make bets with people that they know have large outstanding debts to others, planning to not pay and cite Moneymaker's decision that he doesn't owe anything as part of the justification.
There is no precedent to be relied on by others because ultimately MM did decide to pay out (albeit to JY's creditors).
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Old 10-29-2013, 11:06 PM   #575
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
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the restaurant is in his twitter profile, quote from one of the reviews:

"the place is beautiful, it's a shame that the management is so bad"
Oh damn. That's nasty.
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