First off I am Chris and I got messages from Jason that he was going to post our issue on 2+2 last night and he tweeted about it last night as well. He has threaten to post on here for over a year and I told him that he should feel free to do so. After seeing his tweet I have a feeling he will not list out all the facts correctly so I am here to do so.

It all started in the here on the forums as a group of guys were betting on sports with each other vig free. We bet every week for almost A year and would aalways settle on Monday. You can ask anyone in the group I always paid on time and was a trusted member of the group. About 2 years ago a guy by the name lccf joined somehow and ended up scamming everyone out of a ton of money myself included. At the end of it I had to pay an additional 9k to the people in the forum from this guy as I got trapped but that's another story.

During the scandal Jason sent me a pm saying he worked for a guy that ran a book and offered to set me up. I agreed since the thread was dead and began betting with him. The first week I made about 5k but was out of town and told him to roll it over. The next week and a half went south for me and I lost back my 5 plus my credit limit of 15k. (He stated in his tweet that I owed 25 which is inaccurate)
I told him I was on the road and would take care of it when I got home. No problem he said. As I am sitting in airport headed home I get a Skype message from another guy that used to bet in the forum. He asked if Jason owed me money and I responded that I owed him. He told me Jason has owed him 18k for a few weeks and hadn't paid and asked I pay him instead of Jason. I told him at that time I would not pay Jason and pay him. When I got home I stalled paying Jason to see how the situation would shake out. Over the next 2 months 2 other people I know messaged me asking if Jason owed me money. I gave them dame answer that I owed him. The total thathe owed the 3 guys was over 40k.

By this time jJason was telling me his boss was giving him tons of heat and I need to pay immediately or he would post on 2+2. Initially I didn't mention I knew he owed the other guys. I kept in conversation with the other guys and Jason was telling them that his boss skipped town and he couldn't pay them. At same time his "boss" is busting his chops to get my money. I finally confronted Jason about his outstanding debts and he told me his guy fleur skip town. The whole situation was shady and I talked about paying the other guys what I owed equally. After much thought and talking with many friends I determined that I was being freerolled and decided I am not paying this debt. I have been stiffed by books in the past and customers that owed the book never took care of me. However, since I am "known" the other guys kept asking me to pay them what they won from Jason.

Ultimately I decided I was getting freerolled/scammed again and I will not pay this debt. Jason can post or whatever but the fact of the matter is he was lying to me and others and therefore will not receive anything from me

Chris moneymaker

Mod edit: Jason's response: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=42

So, you didn't end up paying the other guys at all, right? I don't think its your responsibility to do so anyway, honestly.

As for not paying Jason, I guess once you figured out the guy was shady/scammy you had the right to not pay him, though I don't think this reflects well on you since it LOOKS like you're looking for an excuse to not have to pay the debt, even if there's more to it than that.

Okay I understand what you're saying, but surely you can't just ship him the money you owed him?



Should've let Jason deal with the problems he has with regards to the money he owes others in my opinion.

Chris, I played live against the guy that took 3rd against you in the WSOP satellite you won to start the poker boom the other day His SN was HOSS. Anywho! carry on!

There is going to be a ton of posts with people saying all kinds of different things. It will get confusing, and most of it will make no sense.

The bottom line...you lost money to Jason, you pay him. What he is doing with the other guys is none of your business.

I just woke up so I will come back in a bit and re-read this to make sure I didnt miss something.

How I understand this, why didnt you just pay the person YOU owed? Who gives a rats patootie if Jason owes 'some other guy'

Its not your responsibility to pay this other guy, just because he claims that Jason owes him. Like another poster mentioned, let Jason pay him. That has nothing to do with you what-so-ever.

Your issue is that you owed this Jason $20K which I really do not see how you should avoid paying HIM or the Boss or whoever these people are you owe.

This third person though, that used to be in the group? Whatever? Why should you pay him anything. Do you even have proof that he is owed money? Even so, thats your not responsibility to pay it. Settle with who you need to settle with and let the others clean up their own mess.

Also what was the point of bringing up this other part where you got 'trapped'? Its none of our business but since you decided to post it, what is the point of it when it comes to THIS 20K? Was it to show that you were a stand up person and paid money out to people that you really did not need to. I do not understand.

Again, that part, if you do not feel like elaborating, thats fine but I just did not understand why that part was even half mentioned.

I read this story, other prop bet stories on 2p2 and I am just happy that I live my life playing poker and not getting involved with nonsense like this or if I can kick a field goal from the 30-35 yard line.

Unless you KNOW these people you are dealing with and they are your GOOD friends and not just some degen associates ( not saying these people are ) but already it seems that some shadiness is going on, why even get yourself into this situation to begin with?

Best of luck to you, but from where I see it, you owe Jason/His Boss 20K period.

Again....if I am missing something, someone, anyone, clarify it for me and the others.

Yeah, Pay up and let Jason deal with his own problems.

From the looks of it Jason had no intention to pay him if he won. Why should he allow himself to get freerolled?

The man says in 2 lines what it took me like in 20 LOL. Truth though.

+1 I agree with this... Interested in hearing Jason's side of the story though... Opinions could change

Cliffs:

* Moneymaker runs up 20k debt to bookie
* Moneymaker doesn't want to pay him what he owes him, as he thinks he's shady, and might owe money to other people.
* Moneymaker finds out bookie is going to post this on 2+2
* Moneymaker gets in first, posts story using 10,000 words to try and justify the above cliffs.

* Don't lend Moneymaker money, as if he finds out you happen to owe someone else money, he apparently thinks it's completely acceptable not to pay you.

Yeah see, this is the part I missed was the very end.

That JASON/Boss owed 40K......

Ok, waking up...yes...I would WAIT on paying these people then and tell him/them that once he pays out his 40K ( or at least 20K of it to the people he owes ) then you will pay him what you owe.

I guess, this would be the right thing to do but yeah, this is just a crap situation and again, happy to stay clear of it.

Best of luck again.

Give him your final hand from the 2003 WSOP (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chris-Moneym...p2047675.l2557) and call it even.

The issue is Jason was not paying those who bet against him. Paying Jason now would be akin to paying money owed to a poker room that was closing accounts and confiscating the funds of the winners.

If Jason pays back the people he owes, then Chris should pay this money. But chances are, no one is going to front 40k to Jason so he can collect 20k from Chris. It's probably a lot more than 40k that's owed also.

2004? Well he's inaccurate about two things, if you believe Chris that the amount is 20k total.

And "from the looks of it" you mean "according to some unnamed guys which we have absolutely no idea if they're completely honest or not and whose stories we do not know and cannot verify"?

Hey, you know, some guys told me everyone I owe money to aren't paying them back, so, uh, now I'm not paying anyone back. Golden.

Lesson: don't loan anything to Moneymaker.

Well given his reputation in the community I would assume he has proof that people came forward claiming Jason owed them money. Maybe he doesn't want to publicly name names publicly because he doesn't want to drag more people in. I've seen this scenario many times and maybe 7/10 times it turns out that the book is freerolling.

Bookies stiff and get stiffed all the time.its up to you to find and choose a reputable one if you want to bet. You can choose not to pay the debt but you deserve a hit to your reputation for making iffy judgment calls that benefit yourself.

I agree.

Maybe these are silly questions, I dont have too much experience with sports books, but isn't Chris's obligation with the boss, not Jason? If Jason is collecting for his boss who skipped out on Chris's friends, why isn't chris addressing this issue with the boss? If the answer is Jason doesn't not have contact info for the boss, does that mean Jason is pocketing Chris's money?

"The first week I made about 5k but was out of town and told him to roll it over. The next week and a half went south for me and I lost back my 5 plus my credit limit of 15k."

Everyone ITT says he owes $20k, am I just being ******ed or is it not 15k?

Sure sounds like freerolling imo.

If he's chasing up debts, but then not paying out winners, don't pay him back. Pay back when and if they people who are out of pocket get their share. If not, I dont see how giving it to the people who are owed money can be wrong.

Jason is what is known as an agent.

Jason brings players to his boss (the book) and in return gets a % from his boss. Jason vouches for and handles the payments between his players and his boss. Technically Chris owes Jason who owes his boss. But it appears that his boss is stiffing some of Jason's other players.

Assuming there is a boss and he wants Chris' money without Jason paying back his debts, he would need to establish that the debts Jason has are unrelated to his sports betting business. And yes, assuming it was the boss that was extending credit to sports bet with and not Jason, then he'd owe the boss. I'm not just going to give Jason credit for there actually being a bookie that was extending Chris credit without more evidence however.

Need to hear both sides + actual evidence of conversations etc to make an accurate judgement

If Moneymaker's side is 100% true he probably doesn't owe the money, but there are two sides to every story and Chris needs to provide proof that he was being freerolled in order to not owe the money (eg. have the people the book stiffed verify his story, and have the book show any evidence it has to justify not paying them if it exists)