this +1. I have a lot of experience with spots like these and Agent/player relationships almost ALWAYS end up like this. The agent gets stiffed by (usually) the player and doesnt pay the boss. This happens all the time and its a murky situation, but more often then not the boss just moves on and the agent is probably done.

But this particular case is even more complicated because it seems like the boss skipped town and left the agent with his dick in his hands.

The real question here is for the agent: what if chris had won 20k instead of losing 20k? If you already owed a bunch of people money, how would you have paid him? The timeline of events is very important too. If the agent was in the hole before taking on Chris, which it seems is the case, then he was freerolling him and chris shouldnt have to pay IMO.

Bottom line, and believe me Ive learned this the hard way...dont bet on credit with people you dont know. Ever.

I would like to think I have an unbiased opinion on this.

I was a Chris Moneymaker (CM) fan. Him having a masters in accounting and me being an accountant studying for the CPA exam I felt a connection with CM.

Then I read CM and Jason Young's version of the story and thought that CM was in the wrong totally squelching on this bet. How could CM do this? I looked up to him.

Then this sheets guy posts his version and says that Jason Young owes him money, and Jason Young is waiting on CM to pay what is owed in order to pay sheets an amount of money.

Woah. That is a ponzi scheme. If Jason Young was never pulling a fast one, then he would have payed money to Sheets that is rightfully owed, and waited for his CM receivable. Instead he is claiming that CM owes money, and repayment to sheets is dependent on CM.

Take into consideration that if all bets remained the same, but CM had made winning bets, then Jason Young would owe CM and Sheets, without any way of justifying not paying. Here folks is what a Ponzi Scheme looks like when it crumbles.

I think CM actions are just. If you owed Bernie Madoff money when his scheme collapsed, would you pay Bernie? I honestly don't know enough about ponzi statutes about liabilities of CM, but I do know for sure Jason Young owes money to sheets. If/when Jason Young pays money to sheets, then, and only then, will CM owe money to Jason. Otherwise I honestly believe CM owes nothing to Jason.

It can be argued that it would be the right thing to do for CM to pay sheets some money, but I honestly don't know the answer to that (legally and ethically). I am just not sure about that part. But what CM must do, is hold the money he owes to Jason in a separate account, write it off, and wait until Sheets is payed money that is owed to him. Then once that event has occurred, and only then, will CM be obligated to pay Jason.

Normally the "official" arrangement is that the agent is on the hook 100% for his clients. The boss isn't extending credit to the agents clients, he's extending credit to the agent. Its up to the agent to collect from his players and pay the boss, regardless of whether or not he gets paid.

It also goes both ways; if the boss skips town, the agent still has to pay the player. Being an agent is all fun and games until something like this happens.

What are your credentials to determine what is or isn't a ponzi scheme? I am an accountant who has been studying ponzi and pyramid schemes for several years, and have seen them take place in the real world. What do you do for a living that qualifies you to determine what is and what isn't a ponzi scheme?

Better yet, give us one link to any peer reviewed article that you have ever read talking about a ponzi scheme. Maybe YOU are the one who doesn't have a clue.

To be fair, it sounds nothing like a ponzi scheme.

well....im a lawyer who knows the exact details of what happened in this situation and know what facts are and arent accurate in this thread.....so yea....i know what a ponzi scheme is and i know this wasnt one....beyond that.....i know nothing.....im virtually clueless....with that said....im done with this thread

It seems like everyone got in this with the best intentions and both parties had good reputations going into this ****ty situation. For the sake of simplicity, and the fact that chris IS a poker celeb, why doesnt chris just pay sheets and we all move on?

Anyone that has said Chris made a bet and should pay up regardless of circumstances needs to answer this question or gtfo.

If Jason is taking bets why is he putting all his money into his business? He shouldn't be taking bets he can't afford. I believe Jason, but I'm tempted to side with Chris...

I asked sheets to post in this thread that's why sheets posted in this thread. There are alot of people that seem to get the situation and some of u seem to be spouting off inaccurate facts. So ill try and make it even more
Clear then I did before later when I have a few mins to clear some of the non factual things out of here

I'd let this be arbitrated 100000% and its not even close. The facts are the facts

As right as you think you are it's clear CM thinks he is right also. Obv the truth is likely somewhere between what each of you believes.

fwiw I like both Jason and Chris and after reading there first two posts I was thinking Moneymaker def owes the money, but its hard to think that after Sheets posts. Even if Jason was likely to pay, I would feel pissed off and jaded too if I was Chris and Sheets came to me with that story.

To clarify timeline of events. I discovered that Jason owed 18k back around April when I lost. I was in an airport in Europe heading home with every intention to pay Jason. When I found this out yes I waited/stalled whatever you want to call it. Another guy came to me saying Jason owed him 24k a few weeks later. This is long before I knew about sheets. Sheets called me several months later and told me his experience. His "boss" supposedly split back in April but according to sheets he didn't start betting again with Jason till October of that year. I know Jason was completely insolvent then and his "boss" was gone yet he opened up his book for sheets to start betting again.

Jason and I spoke on phone about 3 months ago and he told me I was wrong and continued to tell me he was going to post the situation. He said I borrowed 2k from him and didn't pay that back which I 100 percent know I did during the lccf crap. He was certain I didn't so I agreed to pay him 2k since he thinks I borrowed money and didn't pay him back. I also told him again I am not paying when you were freeroling me. He asked me to pay the first person who brought up his 18k debt and I sent him the money on pokerstars. After I sent it to him he want to set up a payment plan with me to settle the rest of what Jason owes. I told him I am not paying that debt.

For those of you saying I made bets and lost so I must pay are dead wrong end of story. If the book you are betting with is insolvent and you not getting paid then you can't be expected to paid. Clearly a freeroll. And there is zero percent chance I would reverse freeroll Jason or whatever as I do value my reputation.

The decision not to pay did bot come lightly as I knew it would look bad for me, however, I was convinced enough that he was insolvent and freerolling me I know I am right in the situation
This is a crappy situation for both me and Jason and no one is a winner here and it does look bad for both of us.

That being said I know I made right decision after reading about gostatego who I never knew about and his struggles to pay those debts but reopen the book for sheets. By the way since sheets did come in here and speak I will mention that he was the person who contacted me and said that Jason paid him 500 I believe on his 8k debt.