Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-24-2013, 05:23 PM   #126
snapehead
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 470
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

2+2 NVGers, arbiters of justice since time immemorial
snapehead is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:27 PM   #127
Kilowatt
banned
 
Kilowatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,101
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I don't understand the people who are saying, "You made a bet and lost. Pay up."

It's not that simple.

If there is sufficient circumstantial evidence pointing to a scam taking place, that changes everything.

Didn't anyone learn from the Peter Falcone (limplimpcallfold) situation? This guy was the ultimate freeroller/scammer. Should he have been paid if you owed him money, even after it became 100% he was scamming everyone? Obviously not.

So you can't just say "You have to pay up" when someone bets and loses. That's only the case if everything is on the level.

I agree that Jason's other debts are none of Chris' business, but that's not really what this was about. I believe Chris only mentioned these other parties because he was presenting it as evidence of a possible scam.

As I said before, this has a very simple solution.

If Jason can show beyond reasonable doubt that the bookie existed and that he paid the guy on behalf of Chris, then Chris absolutely owes the money.

If Jason can't show this, then Jason cannot be given credit for paying Chris' debt, and therefore Chris does not owe the money.

Nothing else being argued here matters, other than the above.
Kilowatt is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:28 PM   #128
Jigsaw
veteran
 
Jigsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: I'm waiting for you
Posts: 2,309
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

So, one person will maybe get paid when someone else finally pays:

Ponzi scheme.
Jigsaw is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:49 PM   #129
Banned4lyfe
Sup-Bah? Pop-Bah Pooh-Bear Permanently Pooh-Bah Billy Walters Jr
 
Banned4lyfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SoCal ✈
Posts: 13,932
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillCK View Post
I don't think the timeline matters at all.

You book bets with someone...you lose...you pay....period...end of story.
So if you found out your bookie had no plans on paying out winners (including yourself) you would be fine with paying him?
Banned4lyfe is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:53 PM   #130
PokerFan2008
adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,091
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
I don't understand the people who are saying, "You made a bet and lost. Pay up."

It's not that simple.

If there is sufficient circumstantial evidence pointing to a scam taking place, that changes everything.

Didn't anyone learn from the Peter Falcone (limplimpcallfold) situation? This guy was the ultimate freeroller/scammer. Should he have been paid if you owed him money, even after it became 100% he was scamming everyone? Obviously not.

So you can't just say "You have to pay up" when someone bets and loses. That's only the case if everything is on the level.

I agree that Jason's other debts are none of Chris' business, but that's not really what this was about. I believe Chris only mentioned these other parties because he was presenting it as evidence of a possible scam.

As I said before, this has a very simple solution.

If Jason can show beyond reasonable doubt that the bookie existed and that he paid the guy on behalf of Chris, then Chris absolutely owes the money.

If Jason can't show this, then Jason cannot be given credit for paying Chris' debt, and therefore Chris does not owe the money.

Nothing else being argued here matters, other than the above.
Druff,

It seems to me Jason is/was the bookie and got in to deep. why would Jason feel compelled to make good for a bookie not paying?
PokerFan2008 is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:00 PM   #131
EmpireMaker2
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
EmpireMaker2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Epic Burial
Posts: 9,445
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I'm gunna edit this here post cuz Moneymaker seems shady now
EmpireMaker2 is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:01 PM   #132
_jimbo_
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,385
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I think you should have just paid the guy off to begin with but that's almost certainly not going to happen at this stage.

If you want to save some face, just pay off the other guys. I'm sure you can see why keeping the $20k yourself is the wrong move. It would be a disaster for you to do nothing and just let this play out. Stars would be unlikely to sponsor you again and you would constantly have to take grief at any game you sit at in the future.
_jimbo_ is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:03 PM   #133
dankhank
dankest of hanks
 
dankhank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: for me the action is the juice
Posts: 8,094
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
It was also pretty scummy of Jason to out Moneymakers debt to his other customers and even go so far as to have them harass him for money that has nothing to do with them. It's none of their business.
This seems like a really good point.
dankhank is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:03 PM   #134
chrisgardner
journeyman
 
chrisgardner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Philly/Charleston S.C.
Posts: 284
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Seems like Chris is the one Freerolling..

Sheets said he doesn't think Jason was scamming him.

MM is a clown and should pay up.
chrisgardner is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:07 PM   #135
dankhank
dankest of hanks
 
dankhank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: for me the action is the juice
Posts: 8,094
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
I actually do not care whether Jason was actually putting bets in through someone else or not.....he is responsible for the money, and he is the first to admit that!
If I were an agent and a bookie stiffed customers I brought to him, I don't think I would feel obligated to pay the customer off. I'm just the middle man who gets a small cut of the profit; why would I assume all liability. I have no idea what is standard in the agent/bookie world, but I'd be pretty surprised if many agents would assume the bookie's debt in that spot!

The fact that Jason agrees that the debt the mysterious bookie owes you is his (Jason's) responsibility seems weird and surprising to me.
dankhank is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:09 PM   #136
EmpireMaker2
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
EmpireMaker2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Epic Burial
Posts: 9,445
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankhank View Post
If I were an agent and a bookie stiffed customers I brought to him, I don't think I would feel obligated to pay the customer off. I'm just the middle man who gets a small cut of the profit; why would I assume all liability. I have no idea what is standard in the agent/bookie world, but I'd be pretty surprised if many agents would assume the bookie's debt in that spot!

The fact that Jason agrees that the debt the mysterious bookie owes you is his (Jason's) responsibility seems weird and surprising to me.
Agents usually vouch for the full amount to get their cut
EmpireMaker2 is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:12 PM   #137
xalas
◄Valar Morghulis
 
xalas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: The House of Black and White
Posts: 5,665
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillCK View Post
I don't think the timeline matters at all.
I don't think you understand what a freeroll scam is and why the order of events matter.

Picture yourself as a book
You make a small bet with player A for 2k you lose and you don't pay up why? because you are short on money..

so you bet player B this time for 5k if you win you can pay player A and pocket the rest except you lose again do you pay now?
No because you're now deeper in debt.

Next is player C you bet 15k this time if you win you can pay both players A and B and pocket the rest, except you lose again!

NEXT is player D the BIG MONEY you bet 50k and WIN!

Were you scamming??... yes you were.. because if you had lost to Big MONEY too U would NOT had paid up, there for it was NEVER an honest bet.

Were you freerolling scamming Player D??.. Yes, if you won then great! but if you had lost then you were NEVER going to pay...

=======================================

Now the same thing except you have the money and your FIRST bet was with player D for 50k you win, big money doesn't pay but says he will a little bit later

You then tie up some of your money

You then lose smaller bets to player A B C but you know you can pay them the money you won from player D (viewed as a trusted player) and with your money tied up would had never taken the action except you knew you were getting 50k from player D except he doesn't pay you claiming that you were a cheat.

In this case you didn't cheat player D and yes he does owe you the money!

Last edited by xalas; 10-24-2013 at 06:35 PM.
xalas is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:32 PM   #138
Poogs
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,501
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Your Mom View Post
agents are normally just the go-between, taking a cut from the bookie. Result is a lot of ****ty situations, where the bookie disappears, the agent says not my fault, and the client gets screwed.
this +1. I have a lot of experience with spots like these and Agent/player relationships almost ALWAYS end up like this. The agent gets stiffed by (usually) the player and doesnt pay the boss. This happens all the time and its a murky situation, but more often then not the boss just moves on and the agent is probably done.

But this particular case is even more complicated because it seems like the boss skipped town and left the agent with his dick in his hands.

The real question here is for the agent: what if chris had won 20k instead of losing 20k? If you already owed a bunch of people money, how would you have paid him? The timeline of events is very important too. If the agent was in the hole before taking on Chris, which it seems is the case, then he was freerolling him and chris shouldnt have to pay IMO.

Bottom line, and believe me Ive learned this the hard way...dont bet on credit with people you dont know. Ever.
Poogs is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:32 PM   #139
andrewga
banned
 
andrewga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 201
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I would like to think I have an unbiased opinion on this.

I was a Chris Moneymaker (CM) fan. Him having a masters in accounting and me being an accountant studying for the CPA exam I felt a connection with CM.

Then I read CM and Jason Young's version of the story and thought that CM was in the wrong totally squelching on this bet. How could CM do this? I looked up to him.

Then this sheets guy posts his version and says that Jason Young owes him money, and Jason Young is waiting on CM to pay what is owed in order to pay sheets an amount of money.

Woah. That is a ponzi scheme. If Jason Young was never pulling a fast one, then he would have payed money to Sheets that is rightfully owed, and waited for his CM receivable. Instead he is claiming that CM owes money, and repayment to sheets is dependent on CM.

Take into consideration that if all bets remained the same, but CM had made winning bets, then Jason Young would owe CM and Sheets, without any way of justifying not paying. Here folks is what a Ponzi Scheme looks like when it crumbles.

I think CM actions are just. If you owed Bernie Madoff money when his scheme collapsed, would you pay Bernie? I honestly don't know enough about ponzi statutes about liabilities of CM, but I do know for sure Jason Young owes money to sheets. If/when Jason Young pays money to sheets, then, and only then, will CM owe money to Jason. Otherwise I honestly believe CM owes nothing to Jason.

It can be argued that it would be the right thing to do for CM to pay sheets some money, but I honestly don't know the answer to that (legally and ethically). I am just not sure about that part. But what CM must do, is hold the money he owes to Jason in a separate account, write it off, and wait until Sheets is payed money that is owed to him. Then once that event has occurred, and only then, will CM be obligated to pay Jason.
andrewga is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:36 PM   #140
Poogs
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,501
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankhank View Post
If I were an agent and a bookie stiffed customers I brought to him, I don't think I would feel obligated to pay the customer off. I'm just the middle man who gets a small cut of the profit; why would I assume all liability. I have no idea what is standard in the agent/bookie world, but I'd be pretty surprised if many agents would assume the bookie's debt in that spot!

The fact that Jason agrees that the debt the mysterious bookie owes you is his (Jason's) responsibility seems weird and surprising to me.
Normally the "official" arrangement is that the agent is on the hook 100% for his clients. The boss isn't extending credit to the agents clients, he's extending credit to the agent. Its up to the agent to collect from his players and pay the boss, regardless of whether or not he gets paid.

It also goes both ways; if the boss skips town, the agent still has to pay the player. Being an agent is all fun and games until something like this happens.
Poogs is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:42 PM   #141
andrewga
banned
 
andrewga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 201
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dareyou2call View Post
for all you people claiming this is a "ponzi scheme" ....your ignorance of the situation and of what an actual ponzi scheme is embarrassing........
What are your credentials to determine what is or isn't a ponzi scheme? I am an accountant who has been studying ponzi and pyramid schemes for several years, and have seen them take place in the real world. What do you do for a living that qualifies you to determine what is and what isn't a ponzi scheme?

Better yet, give us one link to any peer reviewed article that you have ever read talking about a ponzi scheme. Maybe YOU are the one who doesn't have a clue.
andrewga is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:46 PM   #142
WAtR
veteran
 
WAtR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 2,387
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewga View Post
What are your credentials to determine what is or isn't a ponzi scheme? I am an accountant who has been studying ponzi and pyramid schemes for several years, and have seen them take place in the real world. What do you do for a living that qualifies you to determine what is and what isn't a ponzi scheme?

Better yet, give us one link to any peer reviewed article that you have ever read talking about a ponzi scheme. Maybe YOU are the one who doesn't have a clue.
To be fair, it sounds nothing like a ponzi scheme.
WAtR is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:49 PM   #143
dareyou2call
grinder
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 683
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewga View Post
What are your credentials to determine what is or isn't a ponzi scheme? I am an accountant who has been studying ponzi and pyramid schemes for several years, and have seen them take place in the real world. What do you do for a living that qualifies you to determine what is and what isn't a ponzi scheme?

Better yet, give us one link to any peer reviewed article that you have ever read talking about a ponzi scheme. Maybe YOU are the one who doesn't have a clue.
well....im a lawyer who knows the exact details of what happened in this situation and know what facts are and arent accurate in this thread.....so yea....i know what a ponzi scheme is and i know this wasnt one....beyond that.....i know nothing.....im virtually clueless....with that said....im done with this thread
dareyou2call is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:49 PM   #144
Poogs
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,501
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

It seems like everyone got in this with the best intentions and both parties had good reputations going into this ****ty situation. For the sake of simplicity, and the fact that chris IS a poker celeb, why doesnt chris just pay sheets and we all move on?
Poogs is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:51 PM   #145
grindilocks
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Going South
Posts: 211
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned4lyfe View Post
So if you found out your bookie had no plans on paying out winners (including yourself) you would be fine with paying him?
Anyone that has said Chris made a bet and should pay up regardless of circumstances needs to answer this question or gtfo.
grindilocks is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 06:51 PM   #146
RandomDan
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 92
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

If Jason is taking bets why is he putting all his money into his business? He shouldn't be taking bets he can't afford. I believe Jason, but I'm tempted to side with Chris...
RandomDan is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:02 PM   #147
Jason Young
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,396
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I asked sheets to post in this thread that's why sheets posted in this thread. There are alot of people that seem to get the situation and some of u seem to be spouting off inaccurate facts. So ill try and make it even more
Clear then I did before later when I have a few mins to clear some of the non factual things out of here

I'd let this be arbitrated 100000% and its not even close. The facts are the facts
Jason Young is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:04 PM   #148
Go Get It
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Posts: 12,427
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
I asked sheets to post in this thread that's why sheets posted in this thread. There are alot of people that seem to get the situation and some of u seem to be spouting off inaccurate facts. So ill try and make it even more
Clear then I did before later when I have a few mins to clear some of the non factual things out of here

I'd let this be arbitrated 100000% and its not even close. The facts are the facts
As right as you think you are it's clear CM thinks he is right also. Obv the truth is likely somewhere between what each of you believes.
Go Get It is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:05 PM   #149
charder30
formerly known as zj123
 
charder30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: mArYlAnD
Posts: 27,375
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

fwiw I like both Jason and Chris and after reading there first two posts I was thinking Moneymaker def owes the money, but its hard to think that after Sheets posts. Even if Jason was likely to pay, I would feel pissed off and jaded too if I was Chris and Sheets came to me with that story.
charder30 is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:06 PM   #150
dunlap
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,828
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

To clarify timeline of events. I discovered that Jason owed 18k back around April when I lost. I was in an airport in Europe heading home with every intention to pay Jason. When I found this out yes I waited/stalled whatever you want to call it. Another guy came to me saying Jason owed him 24k a few weeks later. This is long before I knew about sheets. Sheets called me several months later and told me his experience. His "boss" supposedly split back in April but according to sheets he didn't start betting again with Jason till October of that year. I know Jason was completely insolvent then and his "boss" was gone yet he opened up his book for sheets to start betting again.

Jason and I spoke on phone about 3 months ago and he told me I was wrong and continued to tell me he was going to post the situation. He said I borrowed 2k from him and didn't pay that back which I 100 percent know I did during the lccf crap. He was certain I didn't so I agreed to pay him 2k since he thinks I borrowed money and didn't pay him back. I also told him again I am not paying when you were freeroling me. He asked me to pay the first person who brought up his 18k debt and I sent him the money on pokerstars. After I sent it to him he want to set up a payment plan with me to settle the rest of what Jason owes. I told him I am not paying that debt.

For those of you saying I made bets and lost so I must pay are dead wrong end of story. If the book you are betting with is insolvent and you not getting paid then you can't be expected to paid. Clearly a freeroll. And there is zero percent chance I would reverse freeroll Jason or whatever as I do value my reputation.

The decision not to pay did bot come lightly as I knew it would look bad for me, however, I was convinced enough that he was insolvent and freerolling me I know I am right in the situation
This is a crappy situation for both me and Jason and no one is a winner here and it does look bad for both of us.

That being said I know I made right decision after reading about gostatego who I never knew about and his struggles to pay those debts but reopen the book for sheets. By the way since sheets did come in here and speak I will mention that he was the person who contacted me and said that Jason paid him 500 I believe on his 8k debt.
dunlap is offline  

Closed Thread
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive