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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-01-2013, 10:07 AM   #1001
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_seboks_luck View Post
But I could swear from what I've read in this thread that JY seems to have been telling people MM owed him $25 right from the off.

Also, I don't see him using a similar formula to adjust his debt to sheets anywhere.
Interest maybe but not penalties for sheets - he hasn't evaded sheets (acknowledged the debt, even partly paid it) just hasn't paid in whole based on a contingency of MM not fronting the money.

Argument could be made that he has been lazy in enforcing or bringing a resolution to the debt given the evidence in his favour but that all depends on the promises made or undertakings given by MM in between sheet's bet and this thread.

I suppose what is outstanding (for MM to respond to) is the proposition by JY about the commitment at this year's WSOP that MM would once again get on to paying JY- I wouldn't have given him that long to make good but as I said before we don't know the correspondences between October and WSOP and the kind of leading on MM was perhaps doing...(I can't think of the other thing I was going to say )

Edit: Oh yeah - I remember now (as a reason why it's has been dragged out) not wanting to go the all out public route on a Pro (especially one that has won the world series) and well respected as can be shown on here with his support

Last edited by bundy5; 11-01-2013 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:19 AM   #1002
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Haven't read thread because of Halloween and my decision to not pay jason has been made as I know without doubt I was freerolled. That being said I do like the idea of paying money owed to a charity. I do need to pay for my stupid choices of betting sports period. I will let people owed by jy determine which charities get paid.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:22 AM   #1003
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Yo Jason Young, come in here and just provide the basic information you have been asked for and repeatedly ignored since the first page of this thread, and you'll get paid (or at least you'll be owed and your rep will go back up) and this will all be over.

Just provide info that shows you had 20k liquid at the time of the MM bet and it's over, you win. You don't even have to name the bookie or provide evidence he exists. Maybe you were the book and wanted people to think there was a big scary bookie at the end of the line and you were just a middleman for either legal reasons or to encourage people to pay. Either way, showing you had 20k+ liquid that could've paid off the bet had it gone the other way should be more than enough info to get the majority to side with you given the recent turn of events.

I said this earlier, the reason everyone is making these "unfounded assumptions" about your financials is because it really is this easy for you to come in here and provide this info and end this, and you're clearly heavily financially incentivized to do so. But you haven't done it for some reason, and that's led everyone here to read in between the lines...
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:23 AM   #1004
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Haven't read thread because of Halloween and my decision to not pay jason has been made as I know without doubt I was freerolled. That being said I do like the idea of paying money owed to a charity. I do need to pay for my stupid choices of betting sports period. I will let people owed by jy determine which charities get paid.
How do you know "without a doubt"? This is an absurd statement and I'll basically pose the opposite of what I said to Jason in the previous post. If you come here with that info and provide it, it will be clear to everyone that, while you could've acted better in this, you don't owe Jason. Yet you're not doing that...
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:26 AM   #1005
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Haven't read thread because of Halloween and my decision to not pay jason has been made as I know without doubt I was freerolled. That being said I do like the idea of paying money owed to a charity. I do need to pay for my stupid choices of betting sports period. I will let people owed by jy determine which charities get paid.
It would be better if you paid assani, sheets and JY in that order. If you come to an agreement between yourself and JY about the balance to go to charity after you have paid assani and sheets (and any other owed by JY), then all the more power to you both. This would be a very decent act by JY but by no means is advisable based on his interests.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:30 AM   #1006
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Haven't read thread because of Halloween and my decision to not pay jason has been made as I know without doubt I was freerolled. That being said I do like the idea of paying money owed to a charity. I do need to pay for my stupid choices of betting sports period. I will let people owed by jy determine which charities get paid.
I know I am not owed by JY but I am the one that brought up the charity idea so maybe can look kindly on my suggestion. Give some $ to the Make-a-wish Foundation. I always liked the idea of giving things to those less fortunate so they can just enjoy being a kid and splurge/have a taste of the high life.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:32 AM   #1007
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

I don't have any way to prove it unfortunately. I have a new computer and new phone and don't have any of my old conversations. I personally know it to be true and that is good enough for me. I never let it get to this point if I didn't know I was correct. I am going to pay the 15k out as I have made mistakes.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:34 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
It would be better if you paid assani, sheets and JY in that order. If you come to an agreement between yourself and JY about the balance to go to charity after you have paid assani and sheets (and any other owed by JY), then all the more power to you both. This would be a very decent act by JY but by no means is advisable based on his interests.
Jy owes way more than I lost and he will have zero say where the money goes.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:35 AM   #1009
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I don't have any way to prove it unfortunately. I have a new computer and new phone and don't have any of my old conversations. I personally know it to be true and that is good enough for me. I never let it get to this point if I didn't know I was correct. I am going to pay the 15k out as I have made mistakes.
Sensible decision. You can then move on and put it behind you having learnt from your mistakes. You don't want this hanging over your head as it ruins your reputation for both live and online. All the best in your future endeavors.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:35 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Fordham View Post
I know I am not owed by JY but I am the one that brought up the charity idea so maybe can look kindly on my suggestion. Give some $ to the Make-a-wish Foundation. I always liked the idea of giving things to those less fortunate so they can just enjoy being a kid and splurge/have a taste of the high life.
I like any charities dealing with kids or animals.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #1011
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Haven't read thread because of Halloween and my decision to not pay jason has been made as I know without doubt I was freerolled. That being said I do like the idea of paying money owed to a charity. I do need to pay for my stupid choices of betting sports period. I will let people owed by jy determine which charities get paid.
This offer does wonders for my opinion about how you have acted in this situation. I think its a major step, and retract my negative assertions in previous posts. JY should accept, stay off the bookie tight rope, and work harder to keep his employees from drinking and yelling at each other on the job.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #1012
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
It would be better if you paid assani, sheets and JY in that order. If you come to an agreement between yourself and JY about the balance to go to charity after you have paid assani and sheets (and any other owed by JY), then all the more power to you both. This would be a very decent act by JY but by no means is advisable based on his interests.
But you are stating this based on the view that you think JY is owed the money. That is not exactly clear, and certainly MM doesnt agree with you otherwise he would have stuck with the agreement to pay.

MM wants 2 things.

1.) End this discussion forever
2.) Improve/stop the downward spiral of his rep.

Giving the money to charity satisfies both. and the discussion ends today by doing this.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #1013
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Jy owes way more than I lost and he will have zero say where the money goes.
As long as it goes to the right people (JY included)
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:39 AM   #1014
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordham View Post
But you are stating this based on the view that you think JY is owed the money. That is not exactly clear, and certainly MM doesnt agree with you otherwise he would have stuck with the agreement to pay.

MM wants 2 things.

1.) End this discussion forever
2.) Improve/stop the downward spiral of his rep.

Giving the money to charity satisfies both. and the discussion ends today by doing this.
You are putting it forward as if there is significant doubt that MM owes the money. There isn't - JY well and truly gets over the line on the balance of probabilities which is a fair standard to apply IMO.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:39 AM   #1015
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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I like any charities dealing with kids or animals.
Thanks Chris.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:40 AM   #1016
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

oh my. this thread is an absolute trainwreck.

enjoying Kilowatt's posting though
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:46 AM   #1017
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
You are putting it forward as if there is significant doubt that MM owes the money. There isn't - JY well and truly gets over the line on the balance of probabilities which is a fair standard to apply IMO.
I think we have different definition of "significant doubt". Most people in this thread believe if JY was freerolling MM than MM owes him nothing. Most people believe if JY wasnt freerolling MM than MM does owe him the money. Those are "without a doubt". Now depending on who you talk to, they are either certain JY was freerolling or certain JY was ready to pay and everything in between. Now you may be on the "JY was ready to pay" side of the spectrum, but you have to admit that as a whole, there is "significant doubt" on if JY was going to pay or not. Thats the problem we find ourself in.
Its not as simply I am 55% sure JY is right so he wins. Its more like if there is not a consensus that JY was right or MM was right, its best to just give the money to charity and end this.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:59 AM   #1018
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
It would be better if you paid assani, sheets and JY in that order. If you come to an agreement between yourself and JY about the balance to go to charity after you have paid assani and sheets (and any other owed by JY), then all the more power to you both. This would be a very decent act by JY but by no means is advisable based on his interests.
MM had absolutly no business with assani and sheets. JY has to pay them and the matter between MM and JY is complete different.

what if there are more people owed by JY. Why should the both here get paid and the others dont?(I know it sucks for assani and sheets, but it is what it is)

I like the idea of giving the money to charity. Isn t there a thread about a charity that was promised 11 k(2+2 ers gave the money) and the founder disappeared with half of it?

I think it was for youth mental health?

GL
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:05 AM   #1019
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

This thread is a train wreck and could of been avoided if I just paid jason. I stood my ground and I will take a hit in the rep department for it. I am ok with that cause I know the truth and stood up for myself.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:08 AM   #1020
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
This thread is a train wreck and could of been avoided if I just paid jason. I stood my ground and I will take a hit in the rep department for it. I am ok with that cause I know the truth and stood up for myself.
Quoted for Lol
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:12 AM   #1021
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

So Chris you need a new bookie?
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:23 AM   #1022
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordham View Post
I know I am not owed by JY but I am the one that brought up the charity idea so maybe can look kindly on my suggestion. Give some $ to the Make-a-wish Foundation. I always liked the idea of giving things to those less fortunate so they can just enjoy being a kid and splurge/have a taste of the high life.
I also like Make-a-wish. When I was a kid, one of my good friends who didn't have a lot of money was diagnosed with cancer. Make-a-wish hooked him up with a completely new bedroom set, air conditioning unit, toys, etc. Made a big difference in his quality of life and he ended up beating the cancer. Always had a very good opinion of the organization after that. Can't have a less controversial charity than one that specializes in providing happiness to very sick children.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:50 AM   #1023
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
At 1.31

Brilliant - thanks. I miss this show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Assuming this is true, JY still has an interest in recovering as an agent for the % of the bet he will receive. Irrespective of this, I don't accept your second premise that '[bookie skipped town] and didn't pay any bets' - I haven't seen any mention of this from what I have read. Happy to be corrected though




There is no evidence that he wasn't going to be paid. Any reference to Assani is moot because of the inability of anyone (including Assani) to prove that it wasn't a difficulty in communication that caused the debt not to be settled.




Note the preceding argument above.




Taking each one independently:

Sheets is irrelevant - it occurred in October. No one can refute that JY wasn't out of the business at the time having set up his own restaurant (that betting thread backs this up and his absence) and was making a one-off vouch for Sheets.

Also, if matters came to a head in September between JY and MM where 5 months had passed since MM had lost his bet, most would have considered that MM owed that money having relied on the texts that have recently been noted on this thread and having been supplied by JY.



Your speaking in the hypothetical. Look at the facts that JY has presented with the defence used by MM and interpret whose actions are more unreasonable to come to a conclusion as to whether MM is liable.



Because he was out of the business and is able to separate his wagering affairs from his own personal business to do with his restaurant. And was waiting on MM to come good when he vouched for sheets which, if we go back to the timeline (which is critical for the pro MMs), was only one month after MM gave a text guarantee to JY of being paid back and it is reasonable therefore given the proof he did have that MM owed JY the money to vouch sheets the money.

Also consideration should be given to the character of the two people - again similar to Assani (once given reasonable notice of the debt) - he has acknowledged the debt to sheets and developing a pay back schedule to him (which is largely dependent on MM as it turns out)



There is no proof that JY didn't have sufficient capital to pay MM if he won. In fact, it appears that more than likely he did given MM's OP where he admitted that he would rather let the win ride than require JY to pay out as it suggests that JY (and his bookie if that is relevant) was good to payout if he did indeed win on the bet that is in question.
Your definition of reasonable is unreasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
Which makes one bother to ask, why would he be taking bets if

a) his financials were tied up in a restaurant
b) he is awaiting moneymaker's payment

Jason also hasn't provided any proof to his very strong claim that he fronted the 20k or so that Moneymaker owed the bookie. If you know anything about sports betting, you would know this smells like an outright lie. You don't front money for people you barely know or seen on TV, especially if you played high stakes.



0 chance of that happening after texts were posted.
Because he's not smart. And he's a degenerate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1560 View Post
Don't really know who is in the right here, if either of them. However, this thread has fully convinced me never to make significant bets outside of a casino or other licensed gaming establishment. It seems that even when a guy has a good rep (like JY did before this) there is still a non trivial chance you will end up getting screwed. My guess is that at some point, even very well respected and well intentioned bookies/agents/middle man take action without having sufficient cash (without relying on people who owe them to pay up) to settle up if their outstanding bets go against them. Accordingly, in addition to getting the right odds for a bet, a gambler using an unregulated bookie must also factor in the risk that he will not be paid if he wins and/or not be paid in a timely fashion. Doesn't seem worth it especially considering there is no legal recourse if you get screwed.
Woohoo! Someone is learning, which is way more than can be said of the parties involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Haven't read thread because of Halloween and my decision to not pay jason has been made as I know without doubt I was freerolled. That being said I do like the idea of paying money owed to a charity. I do need to pay for my stupid choices of betting sports period. I will let people owed by jy determine which charities get paid.
[ ] know
[ ] without a doubt
[x] stupid choices

Chris- don't make promises to pay. Instead, make promises to seek help for your gambling problem. There is no shame admitting you have a problem and seeking help. There is a reason so many people are calling you out, brother. Stop and let it sink in... YOU HAVE A GAMBLING PROBLEM.

Don't get mad at me. I'm just trying to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I don't have any way to prove it unfortunately. I have a new computer and new phone and don't have any of my old conversations. I personally know it to be true and that is good enough for me. I never let it get to this point if I didn't know I was correct. I am going to pay the 15k out as I have made mistakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
This thread is a train wreck and could of been avoided if I just paid jason. I stood my ground and I will take a hit in the rep department for it. I am ok with that cause I know the truth and stood up for myself.
SEEK HELP for your GAMBLING PROBLEM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:02 PM   #1024
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Chris would be a fool to public admit a gambling problem and lose his primary source of income. Anyone think poker stars can keep him if he announces to the world officially he is a compulsive gambler? I think they would have to drop him.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:18 PM   #1025
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by JamesD816 View Post
Chris would be a fool to public admit a gambling problem and lose his primary source of income. Anyone think poker stars can keep him if he announces to the world officially he is a compulsive gambler? I think they would have to drop him.

I agree his narrative thus far has been, I was a boring accountant until I won playing online poker a satelite, went to the WSOP and beat all the pros to become the champion... And lived happily ever after.


If he admitted he was an addict, it would go from "Moneymaker the accountant that beat Vegas and the pros" to "Christopher former great accountant and how poker ruined his life"
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