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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-31-2013, 08:23 PM   #901
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
Jason now lashing out like a cornered little *****. LOLOLOLOL
It doesn't really count since everyone cornering him is either a random drooler or a nobody who doesn't sports bet so therefore isn't eligible to have an opinion.
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:30 PM   #902
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by ContactGSW View Post
That's a good question. Understand I'm not spitting on the ground and scowling when I use the word welch, but that is what is going on isn't it?
I think that behavior is inherent to the gambling world. This situation has both serious aspects as well as humorous and involves all the emotions spanning so called 'gamblers honor' to smiling at the guy who just cheated you out of a dollar at 3 card monty (a silly thing to cheat at anyway since your odds as the dealer are better than any casino).

Morality is adjustable when it comes to 20k you don't have, and how much it would hurt to get it and give it to someone else you made bets with 18 months ago. And to consider your specific inquiry, I would also consider how mean the dudes were prior to making any moral choices.

I appreciate Druffs arguments, having followed him for many years on his various web sites, and of course have always enjoyed Bobo, even if it he got on my defensive side.

I guess the point I was making was, I always thought that welching on a bet was a pretty big deal for gamblers, hadn't seen that word in this discussion, and that's what this appears to be. Morality on your side or not, a famed gambler is going to have to live with that accusation for a long time. Otherwise I'm out.
It's not welching. If the other guy was freerolling or scamming you, there was never a legitimate bet in the first place.
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:32 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by Banned4lyfe View Post
His name is Edward Cappucci (not really tho). Now what? How do you go about proving or disproving Cappucci was the bookie?
Damn you for bringing me into this
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:39 PM   #904
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by tthree View Post
Erick Lindgren to mediate imo
this
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:52 PM   #905
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Again maybe I am in the minority of all this but as of 2 days ago, MM and JYoung agreed privately to a discounted settlement of the 18k or 25k or whatever the heck the number really was. The next thing we know, Assani comes on here and delivers the THREAD BOMBSHELL - Jason owed him $2000 for almost 18 months and hadn't paid. That revelation led Chris once and for all to decide AGAINST ANY PAYMENT to Jason Young.

Assani recently suggested that Chris perhaps pay the $2000 to him for the main reason that had Assani not come on here, MM likely agreed to pay Jason 4 -6 times that amount. Assani also stated that he would still want Jason to pay him back and any money he received would be sent immediately back to Chris.

I personally think this is a very fair solution because imo everyone wins and looks a little better in the court of public opinion.

1)Chris pays "something" towards his debt that helps Jason in the short term while he creates some kind of payment plan with Assani. Yes, "help Jason" might not be the right phrase but it certainly would be a token of gratitude towards Assani(who likely saved him 10k or more).

2)Jason has 1 debt cleared temporarily while he gets his finances back on track and works out a plan with Assani. I am sure Assani would update the 2+2 forum when Jason made payments and might just restore a little credibility to the JYoung haters(I said MIGHT).

3)Assani gets rewarded for coming on here and shedding some more light onto Jason and his "sports betting tendencies".

Anyways, just my opinion - feel free to agree or disagree.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:06 PM   #906
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

both of them were clearly freerolling thus the bet is void, end of ****ing story
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:08 PM   #907
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Assani and Sheets come across incredibly well. Jason Young...what a louse. His lack of apology, his messages to Assani trying to "share" the blame in non payment and of course the high probability that he was trying to freeroll our World Doofus of Poker champion.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:11 PM   #908
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
I love how Jason and his lackey seem to think they're better than everyone. "Who are you?" "I don't even know who you are!" "I'm not going to respond to randoms." Get over youreslves, you're nobodies to 99.99999% of the world just like the rest of us.

It was your idea to take this public to shame MM and now you refuse to discuss the issue with "randoms?" Makes lots of sense. Perhaps it's because they're asking tough questions you didn't anticipate...
Typical New Yorker behavior. I've played a few tourneys with Jason at the Borgata, I know his type.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:11 PM   #909
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I don't have 100% surety of anything. You made the ridiculous assertion (and apparently still do) that once a bet is booked, that's it, nothing else matters. I gave you a hypothetical situation to see where you stood on that. I take it from this response that even if you were 100% certain that the person you bet with wouldn't have paid you, you'd still pay them. Talk about a scammer's paradise!

I guess we are looking at it from a different perspective, and that makes it seem ridiculous to you. I look at it from how the parties described it, not from a hypothetical point of view, which you have asked me to. I call a guy and bet on a football game, its booked, whoever wins the bet gets the money. If I decide the guy is immoral, booked it himself, owes other people, doesn't have the money in his pocket, (or maybe it's because it's for 20 thousand dollars?), I can welch on my loss. It's still a welch right, good or bad reasons? Yes, from my perspective it was a made bet, and pretty routine, and a welch is not even a very bad sin. my point is its a welch and despite all the eloquent suppositions I disagree that this specific interaction has to be described any other way, tainted, null, void etc. My point is, call it what it is, and let the parties live with it, just my opinion, ridiculous or not.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:12 PM   #910
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob999 View Post
Assani and Sheets come across incredibly well. Jason Young...what a louse. His lack of apology, his messages to Assani trying to "share" the blame in non payment and of course the high probability that he was trying to freeroll our World Doofus of Poker champion.
He is an accountant - he must have a college degree I would imagine.

Being called a Doofus is kinda harsh, no???
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:15 PM   #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUMike1999 View Post
Again maybe I am in the minority of all this but as of 2 days ago, MM and JYoung agreed privately to a discounted settlement of the 18k or 25k or whatever the heck the number really was. The next thing we know, Assani comes on here and delivers the THREAD BOMBSHELL - Jason owed him $2000 for almost 18 months and hadn't paid. That revelation led Chris once and for all to decide AGAINST ANY PAYMENT to Jason Young.

Assani recently suggested that Chris perhaps pay the $2000 to him for the main reason that had Assani not come on here, MM likely agreed to pay Jason 4 -6 times that amount. Assani also stated that he would still want Jason to pay him back and any money he received would be sent immediately back to Chris.

I personally think this is a very fair solution because imo everyone wins and looks a little better in the court of public opinion.

1)Chris pays "something" towards his debt that helps Jason in the short term while he creates some kind of payment plan with Assani. Yes, "help Jason" might not be the right phrase but it certainly would be a token of gratitude towards Assani(who likely saved him 10k or more).

2)Jason has 1 debt cleared temporarily while he gets his finances back on track and works out a plan with Assani. I am sure Assani would update the 2+2 forum when Jason made payments and might just restore a little credibility to the JYoung haters(I said MIGHT).

3)Assani gets rewarded for coming on here and shedding some more light onto Jason and his "sports betting tendencies".

Anyways, just my opinion - feel free to agree or disagree.
666th post... spooky

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using 2+2 Forums
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:16 PM   #912
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by 46&2 View Post
666th post... spooky

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using 2+2 Forums
COOL - Didn't even notice

AND ON HALLOWEEN NO LESS!!!
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:21 PM   #913
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Old 10-31-2013, 09:22 PM   #914
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COOL - Didn't even notice

AND ON HALLOWEEN NO LESS!!!

Precisely..carry on
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:23 PM   #915
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy View Post
It's not welching. If the other guy was freerolling or scamming you, there was never a legitimate bet in the first place.
You seem pretty confident in those facts, and your definition of what a welch is.

MM booked bets, lost 20k. That's a fact.
He is not going to pay the bets for reasons he has posted, another fact.
Those reasons are in active dispute, fact.

Start from there, welch is a slang term anyway, so after the rest of the facts are in we can argue about all the qualifications that are implied in the term welch, but I'll start: not paying a bet has to be on the top line.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:32 PM   #916
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Here's another bookie who opened a restaurant:


COLLINGSWOOD, N.J. (AP) -- When he was on trial for racketeering, Angelo Lutz denied the mob's existence, but now he's using his past in organized crime to promote his new restaurant, the Kitchen Consigliere.

The sign out front echoes the logo for "The Godfather" but with a chef's hat. A mural on one wall puts Lutz, also known as Fat Ange, at a table with famous gangsters, both real (John Gotti) and fictional (Tony Soprano). Sconces to hold lights look like 9 mm handguns.

And some nights, he serves up a special he calls Joey's Pork Chops, in honor of Joseph "Skinny Joey" Merlino, the reputed Philadelphia-South Jersey mob boss. He's also happy to tell customers stories from his past.

Lutz is using some unsavory associations as he attempts a transformation from prisoner to opinionated celebrity chef.

Last week, he moved his operations from an 11-table restaurant to one three times as large on a prominent corner of the hip, foodie-friendly Philadelphia suburb of Collingswood.

"I never considered myself a gangster. I'm not a gangster. The government considered me a gangster. The government considered me a mob associate," he said. "But what I am now is a businessman."

Lutz, 49, grew up in South Philadelphia, where food was a big part of his life. According to federal prosecutors and a jury, he also did some bad along the way.

He was one of seven men convicted in a 2001 mob trial that made him a celebrity. He was the only non-"made" member of La Costa Nostra in the case and the only defendant allowed bail during the trial. And he talked and talked while he was out, calling into a sports talk radio show and cooking steaks for a TV news reporter.

The government said Lutz was a bookie and debt collector for the Mafia. Although he wasn't violent, he was sentenced to nine years in prison but later got nearly a year knocked off on appeal.

More at: http://news.yahoo.com/convicted-mobs...061015368.html
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:32 PM   #917
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
I am not certain of anything, but I have faith that I will get my money eventually regardless, (he did pay me some, and I have waited alot longer to get paid debts in the past. I don't mind waiting, but would prefer not to obviously).....
And that's why Chris should pay. If Jason flat out refused to pay others or didn't even acknowledge outstanding debts he owed that could potentially be grounds to not pay him. Chris wasn't getting free rolled, he simply wouldn't have gotten payed in a timely manner if he won. He woulda had to get Jason on a payment plan and wait a few years etc......... it sucks, but you shouldn't make no escrow bets with random people on the Internet if you aren't willing to deal with slow payment and it's definitely not a valid reason to welch.
 
Old 10-31-2013, 10:51 PM   #918
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Did any cash actually trade hands or was the first bet credit?
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:09 PM   #919
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Did any cash actually trade hands or was the first bet credit?
After more than 900 posts you really have to ask that???
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:35 PM   #920
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Cut him some slack, maybe he is a little slow- it took him almost 6 years to hit 29 posts, lol.
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:35 PM   #921
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by ContactGSW View Post
I guess we are looking at it from a different perspective, and that makes it seem ridiculous to you. I look at it from how the parties described it, not from a hypothetical point of view, which you have asked me to. I call a guy and bet on a football game, its booked, whoever wins the bet gets the money. If I decide the guy is immoral, booked it himself, owes other people, doesn't have the money in his pocket, (or maybe it's because it's for 20 thousand dollars?), I can welch on my loss. It's still a welch right, good or bad reasons? Yes, from my perspective it was a made bet, and pretty routine, and a welch is not even a very bad sin. my point is its a welch and despite all the eloquent suppositions I disagree that this specific interaction has to be described any other way, tainted, null, void etc. My point is, call it what it is, and let the parties live with it, just my opinion, ridiculous or not.
The only thing I think is ridiculous is the idea that there is absolutely no circumstances under which one party could be justified in not paying.

If you discover after the fact that the person you've booked action is 100% scammer and never pays bets he loses, yes, you can say that it's your fault that you didn't do your research, and you'd probably be right. But does that really mean you should still pay the scammer? I don't think it does.

That said, I see the flip side. Obviously this would be a convenient way to, as you say, welch on a bet. The evidence would have to be pretty solid IMO, and it's not often going to be - if there's overwhelming evidence out there, you're usually going to know about it before you place the bet, and if you somehow don't find out, you're not likely to during the wager and before you pay.

I think the question in this case is whether the evidence of a bet placed with no intention to pay has reached the level of confidence that it justifies not paying the bet. I think there is such a level, and unless I've misunderstood, you don't - that's what we disagree on.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:04 AM   #922
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Love MM excuse with no phone or internet. What planet doesn't have internet?

What a trainwreck. Even if MM was getting freerolled, this thread has caused 10x the damage of just paying and moving on.

MM was never going to pay and found perfect excuse not to. Congrats. Saved $20k and ruined rep.
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:13 AM   #923
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If there's one thing I've learnt from this thread it's don't willingly air your dirty laundry on 2+2 if you've ever used telecommunications or the Internet.
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:32 AM   #924
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

summary of key facts

1. Chris told Jason he was going to pay him numerous times, backed up by skype logs Jason has posted.

2. When Chris continued to evade payment Jason took it to 2+2.

3. Facing the real risk that damage to his reputation could damage future income, he tried to justify his non-payment. At one point he made a public statement in this thread saying he would pay the money, acknowledged that despite his reservations, Jason had no history of scamming and a reliable track record with other 2+2 members, only to renege within 48 hours.

4. The evidence posted in this thread suggests Chris had neither the means or the intent to pay Jason for his sports betting losses.



This seems to be a fairly straightforward case of Chris not honoring the agreement between him and Jason. Allegations that Jason would not have honored his end of the agreement are circumstantial. Moreover, Chris continued to tell Jason he would tell him he would pay him back until the dispute was recently made public on 2+2.


Disclaimer: I have no personal relationship with Chris, Jason, or any persons who may have a vested interest in the outcome.
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:58 AM   #925
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
summary of key facts

1. Chris told Jason he was going to pay him numerous times, backed up by skype logs Jason has posted.

2. When Chris continued to evade payment Jason took it to 2+2.

3. Facing the real risk that damage to his reputation could damage future income, he tried to justify his non-payment. At one point he made a public statement in this thread saying he would pay the money, acknowledged that despite his reservations, Jason had no history of scamming and a reliable track record with other 2+2 members, only to renege within 48 hours.

4. The evidence posted in this thread suggests Chris had neither the means or the intent to pay Jason for his sports betting losses.



This seems to be a fairly straightforward case of Chris not honoring the agreement between him and Jason. Allegations that Jason would not have honored his end of the agreement are circumstantial. Moreover, Chris continued to tell Jason he would tell him he would pay him back until the dispute was recently made public on 2+2.


Disclaimer: I have no personal relationship with Chris, Jason, or any persons who may have a vested interest in the outcome.
Um, in your mind that was an extremely accurate description of the events... but the next question I have for you is:

How long have you and Jason been best friends????
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