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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-01-2013, 09:20 AM   #976
gameoverjc
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeBelieve View Post
how does moneymaker saying to roll it over, make it likely that whoever was the bookie could pay? wheres the logic in that?

you can say that to broke person too right.
this.

Bundy5, I respect you aren't drawing your viewpoint out of thin air. At this point though, it's become apparent you keep viewing the best case scenario for Jason Young's side, allowing 0 room for interpretation based off the facts. It seems the only solution that anyone prove Jason was freerolling, would be for them to go with Jason Young to his bank and see his statement of April to prove he was insolvent. Even then, I have a feeling you and other detractors of Moneymaker would state that doesn't prove anything - that Jason could have had cash elsewhere.

So at this point I'm just going to agree to disagree.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:22 AM   #977
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post

I think the question in this case is whether the evidence of a bet placed with no intention to pay has reached the level of confidence that it justifies not paying the bet. I think there is such a level, and unless I've misunderstood, you don't - that's what we disagree on.
Point taken, I described the situation at hand, and agree there are instances where a bet can be booked in totally fraudulent situations, constituting not a wager, but a scam.

Despite granting this, both of these parties have presented facts about this case, including MM agreeing that he lost these bets in good faith and owed the money, and MM stating that JY had a very good reputation. So it appears that MM is grasping at anything he can to get out of the bet (insert W word), because his back is up against the wall money wise. While your argument is correct, it does not apply to this case from what I can see.

I suggest the parties continue to negotiate a settlement, that is the only way out of this mess.

And while Druffs algorithmic charts are cool, they are just his idea of what the gambling world should be. There is no official rule book as far as I can tell.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:24 AM   #978
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i vote MM
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:24 AM   #979
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
If you bothered to read my reply to gameover, you would come to the understanding that sheets is irrelevant to this debate. It occurred 6 months after MM lost his bet. Its only relevancy is to the extent of recovery from MM being able to be given to sheets.
Which makes one bother to ask, why would he be taking bets if

a) his financials were tied up in a restaurant
b) he is awaiting moneymaker's payment

Jason also hasn't provided any proof to his very strong claim that he fronted the 20k or so that Moneymaker owed the bookie. If you know anything about sports betting, you would know this smells like an outright lie. You don't front money for people you barely know or seen on TV, especially if you played high stakes.

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Originally Posted by ContactGSW View Post
I suggest the parties continue to negotiate a settlement, that is the only way out of this mess.
0 chance of that happening after texts were posted.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:25 AM   #980
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
(see sheets, $500 over 18 months out of 7-8k payout, which is about $28 a month
Oh good lawd Jesus...winner.

$28 dollars a month is laughable.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:26 AM   #981
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
this.

Bundy5, I respect you aren't drawing your viewpoint out of thin air. At this point though, it's become apparent you keep viewing the best case scenario for Jason Young's side, allowing 0 room for interpretation based off the facts. It seems the only solution that anyone prove Jason was freerolling, would be for them to go with Jason Young to his bank and see his statement of April to prove he was insolvent. Even then, I have a feeling you and other detractors of Moneymaker would state that doesn't prove anything - that Jason could have had cash elsewhere.

So at this point I'm just going to agree to disagree.
I agree with this and I reckon MM accepts this proposition that the disclosure of bank statements isn't going to occur in these circumstances for ultimate proof and that the reputation of gamblers who have been righted or wronged by JY will be more important.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:30 AM   #982
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
Which makes one bother to ask, why would he be taking bets if

a) his financials were tied up in a restaurant
b) he is awaiting moneymaker's payment

Jason also hasn't provided any proof to his very strong claim that he fronted the 20k or so that Moneymaker owed the bookie. If you know anything about sports betting, you would know this smells like an outright lie. You don't front money for people you barely know or seen on TV, especially if you played high stakes.
Well firstly we don't know the exact amount that JY owes sheets (from what I have read) and secondly, it isn't unreasonable for JY to have a separate gambling fund (to the capital devoted to his restaurant) to be able to give one-off vouches to others especially in light of the irrefutable evidence he has on MM that he has admitted on numerous occasions of owing JY the money.

Sort of a trigger that can be pulled anytime but especially so after sheets had won the bet.

I'll also pull you up about 'fronting money for people you barely know' as I do believe sheets and JY have transacted before - sheets cleaned him out before (JY satisfied this debt mind you) but JY initiated the contact in October to see whether sheets wanted the action and they bet IIRC.

Edit: same applies to MM - they have history I do believe.

Last edited by bundy5; 11-01-2013 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:38 AM   #983
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

I always had respect for MM for his win and how he conducted himself. Lost all of that now and would never do ANY transaction with him. Not even let him watch my chips when i went to the bathroom.

Never knew JY but I would never do ANY transaction not even trust him to leave the tip after a dinner.

I think the only way to end this forever, is if MM gives whatever he owes to charity. Maybe as a nice gesture give Assante his $ out of the money he would give to charity and give the rest to charity, but that is not really neccessary since its a courtesy.

If he gives him money to charity, we cant accuse MM of freerolling in the end because he paid his debts, he helps people benefit out of this cluster**** of a situation, and salvages a little of his rep because he holds himself accountable.

For JY, he gets to know Chris is out the money even tho he does not personally benefit.
Only he knows if he truly was freerolling Chris, but how he's conducted himself we can all agree, has put doubt in the bettor (Chris) and the 2p2 community as a whole and in this case the penalty for that is 20k.

This could still be a good situation if Chris gives the money to charity and post on here the proof showing he paid. It immediately ends all debate because noone will expect Chris to pay JY after he has already given the money to charity and he can at least put the "He is too broke to pay and therefore is a scammer" title to bed.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:41 AM   #984
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Well firstly we don't know the exact amount that JY owes sheets (from what I have read) and secondly, it isn't unreasonable for JY to have a separate gambling fund (to the capital devoted to his restaurant) to be able to give one-off vouches to others especially in light of the irrefutable evidence he has on MM that he has admitted on numerous occasions of owing JY the money.

Sort of a trigger that can be pulled anytime but especially so after sheets had won the bet.
well if he did that it sortof...
Spoiler:
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:41 AM   #985
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordham View Post
I always had respect for MM for his win and how he conducted himself. Lost all of that now and would never do ANY transaction with him. Not even let him watch my chips when i went to the bathroom.

Never knew JY but I would never do ANY transaction not even trust him to leave the tip after a dinner.

I think the only way to end this forever, is if MM gives whatever he owes to charity. Maybe as a nice gesture give Assante his $ out of the money he would give to charity and give the rest to charity, but that is not really neccessary since its a courtesy.

If he gives him money to charity, we cant accuse MM of freerolling in the end because he paid his debts, he helps people benefit out of this cluster**** of a situation, and salvages a little of his rep because he holds himself accountable.

For JY, he gets to know Chris is out the money even tho he does not personally benefit.
Only he knows if he truly was freerolling Chris, but how he's conducted himself we can all agree, has put doubt in the bettor (Chris) and the 2p2 community as a whole and in this case the penalty for that is 20k.

This could still be a good situation if Chris gives the money to charity and post on here the proof showing he paid. It immediately ends all debate because noone will expect Chris to pay JY after he has already given the money to charity and he can at least put the "He is too broke to pay and therefore is a scammer" title to bed.
The only charity is sheets and assani to be paid first and anyone else that can be established and JY gets the rest.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:42 AM   #986
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

An idea would be to let JY pick the charity you give the money to, or maybe open a thread asking the 2p2 community to recommend/vote on which charity gets the money.

That will be the first time that has ever happend on 2p2 and all the hate coming your way Chris can turn into a positive because you show that not all poker players are broke, degens that look for an excuse for not paying their bets.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:43 AM   #987
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Don't really know who is in the right here, if either of them. However, this thread has fully convinced me never to make significant bets outside of a casino or other licensed gaming establishment. It seems that even when a guy has a good rep (like JY did before this) there is still a non trivial chance you will end up getting screwed. My guess is that at some point, even very well respected and well intentioned bookies/agents/middle man take action without having sufficient cash (without relying on people who owe them to pay up) to settle up if their outstanding bets go against them. Accordingly, in addition to getting the right odds for a bet, a gambler using an unregulated bookie must also factor in the risk that he will not be paid if he wins and/or not be paid in a timely fashion. Doesn't seem worth it especially considering there is no legal recourse if you get screwed.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:43 AM   #988
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeBelieve View Post
well if he did that it sortof...
Spoiler:
Not really - he has done MM a service by keeping it under wraps for so long. Anyone know the statute of limitations for underground dealings?
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:43 AM   #989
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Sam341 View Post
I feel like this is an attempt to save face and act like "hey! I'm still rich, but busto in my gambling account"
Of course. Just like he was getting laid all the time in Canada when he was in high school.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:44 AM   #990
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

No chance either of these guys walk away from this not looking like scumbags imo.

Edit: @ Fordham's last post
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:44 AM   #991
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by vazdog33 View Post
"Your 2004 wsop main event champion Chris moneymaker is a scammer and a thief. Over a year and a half for just under 25k and I'm done waiting"
I'm still waiting for an explanation of the math re. how $14k becomes $25k
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:44 AM   #992
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by wilson1560 View Post
However, this thread has fully convinced me never to make significant bets outside of a casino or other licensed gaming establishment.
If anything is to be learnt from this thread, it is this. ^^^
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:46 AM   #993
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Nobel1 View Post
It could also be saying I separated my gambling money from the money I saved for my family, which sounds very reasonable.
That would be the first. All gamblers separate their gambling funds, as long as they don't lose.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:48 AM   #994
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Seems like the old adage that "possession is 9/10 of the law" rings very true here. CM has the money, he has convinced himself he was wronged by JY (rightly or wrongly), and hence he's not paying.

The onus is therefore on JY to produce irrefutable evidence that there was a bookie who welched and/or he had funds to cover the bets at the time they were made (the Kilowatt Konditions). Only by doing this could he pressure CM, at least indirectly, to pay. Having friends vouch for him clearly isn't going to cut it. Probably only bank statements would do, shown to a trusted neutral party.

I will agree, however, that releasing those texts, completely unedited, was a very reckless thing to do, and now complicates this further.

Just a very sad situation for everyone involved.

--PP
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:48 AM   #995
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
The only charity is sheets and assani to be paid first and anyone else that can be established and JY gets the rest.
So you believe JY should get the money. I respect that. Many people believe MM should not pay a dime. I respect there view also.

But the one way MM can satisfy both people and put this behind him forever is to pay the money to a charity. While YOU still might hate MM because he didnt give JY the money you believe he owes him, you cant argue that Chris is a scammer in the end because he still paid the money. And for those that think Chris should not pay, by him paying it to a charity they can get satisfaction that at least JY didnt get rewarded for freerolling in their opinion, and MM payed a debt he didnt necessarily have to.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:48 AM   #996
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Not really - he has done MM a service by keeping it under wraps for so long. Anyone know the statute of limitations for underground dealings?
maybe he kept it under wraps for so long because he isnt exactly squeaky clean himself
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:48 AM   #997
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by joe_seboks_luck View Post
I'm still waiting for an explanation of the math re. how $14k becomes $25k
It's not 25k but it isn't 14k ($14770 from MM's own mouth - $7k bet X 2 plus $770 in points IIRC) - the delay in payment largely due to, as it turns out from the texts supplied by JY, frustration to JY's financial position probably lifts it to $20k taking into account interest and penalties.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:54 AM   #998
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Fordham View Post
So you believe JY should get the money. I respect that. Many people believe MM should not pay a dime. I respect there view also.

But the one way MM can satisfy both people and put this behind him forever is to pay the money to a charity. While YOU still might hate MM because he didnt give JY the money you believe he owes him, you cant argue that Chris is a scammer in the end because he still paid the money. And for those that think Chris should not pay, by him paying it to a charity they can get satisfaction that at least JY didnt get rewarded for freerolling in their opinion, and MM payed a debt he didnt necessarily have to.
I don't hate MM. I'm simply applying the strict legal view as I see it.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:58 AM   #999
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
It's not 25k but it isn't 14k ($14770 from MM's own mouth - $7k bet X 2 plus $770 in points IIRC) - the delay in payment largely due to, as it turns out from the texts supplied by JY, frustration to JY's financial position probably lifts it to $20k taking into account interest and penalties.
But I could swear from what I've read in this thread that JY seems to have been telling people MM owed him $25 right from the off.

Also, I don't see him using a similar formula to adjust his debt to sheets anywhere.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:02 AM   #1000
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
I don't hate MM. I'm simply applying the strict legal view as I see it.
I didnt mean hate, I meant view him as a scammer. And NOONE in here is arguing legality of this ILLEGAL bet. It is a FACT that legally MM owes JY nothing since it was illegal from the beginning. We are all discussing ethically and what the right thing to do to protect or at least stop the bleeding for these guys reps.
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