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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-01-2013, 06:38 AM   #951
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Sam341 View Post
LOL. where can I get staked on paying my debts? FWIW I've been pro MM this whole thread , but this made me laugh
There is your problem right there
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:41 AM   #952
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Will say Jason is smooth on the phone. He almost got me to pay him 4 or 5 times after I knew he was taking a shot. Now he tries to manipulate assani.

Jason was the bookie that day not his "guy"
Jason "forgot" about the bet
lol
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:54 AM   #953
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post

This isn't a huge bombshell that Chris was broke and probably freerolling. Anyone with a brain already figured that out.

However, these texts do nothing to prove that Jason wasn't also freerolling.
Well JY has provided proof that MM was busto for at least about 5 months after losing the bet in those texts, but where is MM's proof that JY was busto, other than Assani where, in that situation, both parties can't rule out that it was poor communication that led to JY not paying out and to his credit, he has acknowledged the debt and undertaking ways to pay it back?
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:58 AM   #954
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
Yes, it would be unreasonable.

Chris is NOT $15-$25k richer. He did not make a dime from this whole transaction with Jason's phony "bookie".

Instead, he lost money to the fake bookie, and agreed to pay Jason as the "agent" for this fake person, not realizing at the time he was being scammed.

Of course, the texts we saw confirm that Chris was also freerolling the "bookie", not realizing that the bookie was fake and he would never get paid if he won.

So we basically had two guys trying to freeroll each other, but the good news is that zero money actually changed hands.

Since it was a scam on both sides, nobody got richer as a result of this, and the whole thing should be completely dropped.

Therefore, Chris also does not owe YOU anything, as none of the above affected you at all. Jason's freerolling of you was a completely separate matter.
This 100% confirms that you aren't and were never in a position to be a private arbitrator in this matter.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:10 AM   #955
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Excuse my ignorance but why is your name dunlap on 2 plus 2? Also when do you plan on shipping the main next?
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:14 AM   #956
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

so how slow can payment be before it becomes a freeroll? life is finite in case you didnt know.

Also dealing with people that owe you becomes draining after a while. Its sickning to have to keep asking (cause they never seem to contact you) and be polite. Doubt he kept in contact with them its probably the other way around. You can see it itt, people he owes money to are polite and try keeping this voice of reason to try and get their money back but actually they think he's an ******* scumbag and rightly so.

**** you pay me, should suffice in getting your money back but sadly you have to handle these egotistical cats with satin gloves and continiously keep asking for your cash or they dont pay at all.

So yeah, reallly have no respect for people who handle buisness like this. Obvious he ran from 2 + 2 aswell cause he had debts here. Yeah I know and apart from his lackeys everybody in this thread knows.

for CM the same could be said but in the end he mostly hurt himself and a guy who turns out to do the same to others.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:34 AM   #957
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
Jason only has to answer those two questions really. Was there a bookie (prove to someone there was)
Why does that matter? Fact is, MM made the bet with JY as the agent or at worse the bookie.

Even if the bookie did exist and was named, it doesn't take away from JY having the authority to collect and MM being liable to pay on the losing bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
and show how he covered for Chris's bet.
Where is the proof that JY was busto? No-one can refute (even Assani himself) that the 2k that was owed to Assani at about the time MM lost his bet wasn't lost 'in translation' as a result of poor communication. It should be mentioned that JY has since then acknowledged the bet and initiated steps to pay it back.

As for any other evidence that JY was busto (with reference in particular to the 18k) well that is still unsubstantiated until the person owed comes forward which is extremely unlikely and in all likelihood, just fabricated by MM as we can tell by his OP - I'll pick out this specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
The first week I made about 5k but was out of town and told him to roll it over. The next week and a half went south for me and I lost back my 5 plus my credit limit of 15k. (He stated in his tweet that I owed 25 which is inaccurate)
I told him I was on the road and would take care of it when I got home. No problem he said. As I am sitting in airport headed home I get a Skype message from another guy that used to bet in the forum. He asked if Jason owed me money and I responded that I owed him. He told me Jason has owed him 18k for a few weeks and hadn't paid and asked I pay him instead of Jason. I told him at that time I would not pay Jason and pay him. When I got home I stalled paying Jason to see how the situation would shake out. Over the next 2 months 2 other people I know messaged me asking if Jason owed me money. I gave them dame answer that I owed him. The total thathe owed the 3 guys was over 40k.
So basically we have, from MM's own account, that let's say that within a week of losing the bet that an anonymous player comes forward and says that JY owes him 18k which stalls MM's payment to JY and then for the next two months (April to June/July) more people come forward and say that JY owes them money which prompted further stalling and not paying - well where is reference to this in JY's messages?

You would think, from a reasonable point of view, that there would be some sort of mention of this hint of freerolling by JY by stating that the reason I haven't paid you the money yet is because of you reportedly owing other people money but all I can see from his texts up to September (which is 2 months past July from where MM has said that he has received notice from other people who are owed money from JY) that he does in fact owe money to JY and is waiting on some sort of staking deal to pay...WTF?

Well I guess he has had more than a year to come up with a concrete story (or so he thought)

Last edited by bundy5; 11-01-2013 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 07:59 AM   #958
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by PSUMike1999 View Post
The fact of the matter is, the gambling/poker environment has this kind of stuff happening all over the place. It's become so common in fact that most times people rarely give it a 2nd thought.

Chris and everything about his 2003 win(including his name)brought poker to the masses and made PokerStars a household name.

It will take a lot more than this imo for Pokerstars to drop Chris altogether. However, based on his current financial situation that we can deduce from this thread- it doesn't look like Chris has the greatest deal anymore from PokerStars anyways.

It's hard to say really. If you carefully read MM's texts he's basically telling Jason he can only pay from money that's hidden from his wife, and that's why he couldn't do a payment plan. I believe that's also what MM meant when he mentioned if he gets to Mexico he'll have a "hidden account," meaning money hidden from his wife not a hidden PS account.

So MM apparently degened so much in the past that he now gets an allowance from his wife.

Or all that was just excuses to delay.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:03 AM   #959
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

i dont really get how ppl are saying moneymaker wasnt getting freerolled. if JY was an agent to the bookie then MM was still making bets with the bookie and not JY and the bookie later freerolled others. if JY was the bookie then he freerolled the other ppl. either way MM was betting against a freeroller and JY already stated he vouches without having the money to back it up.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:09 AM   #960
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by cheeseisgood View Post
i dont really get how ppl are saying moneymaker wasnt getting freerolled. if JY was an agent to the bookie then MM was still making bets with the bookie and not JY and the bookie later freerolled others. if JY was the bookie then he freerolled the other ppl. either way MM was betting against a freeroller and JY already stated he vouches without having the money to back it up.
But the texts don't back up MM's story.

Where does he say he suspects he is getting freerolled from any of the texts from July to September 2012?

Instead, as you should know, he acknowledges he owes the bet and is waiting on some sort of staking deal (amongst other reasons) to make inroads into paying it.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:14 AM   #961
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Saw this post and sent Shane a PM and wanted to post here as well. Since this post went up Dave has contacted me and is paying me back. Says he is paying others. I set up the transfer for him so he could pay me some cash. I ensured that Dave sent first before he got cash. I dont talk to him often but he has made efforts to pay me
Despite MM telling JY that people owed him money and were not paying we have evidence from MM himself that in Sept 2012 he was actually receiving money from one of the people who owed him. (The guy who scammed him. Who he also apparently now hangs around with again.)
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:22 AM   #962
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Why does that matter? Fact is, MM made the bet with JY as the agent or at worse the bookie.
Yes it does matter. If you read the thread you would understand that bookie skipped town, and didn't pay any bets thereafter (according to Jason). If this is true, Chris doesn't owe.

Quote:
Even if the bookie did exist and was named, it doesn't take away from JY having the authority to collect and MM being liable to pay on the losing bet.
Moneymaker isn't liable to pay a bookie who was never going to pay him.

Quote:
Where is the proof that JY was busto? No-one can refute (even Assani himself) that the 2k that was owed to Assani at about the time MM lost his bet wasn't lost 'in translation' as a result of poor communication. It should be mentioned that JY has since then acknowledged the bet and initiated steps to pay it back.
First off, Jason has admitted 0 fault on his side, despite evidence clearly supporting Assani's version (which no one has disputed). It shows the kind of character Jason is. If he pays off the 2k in one month we will see, but everything else is talk/noise.

An interesting note about Assani: All the pro-Jason Young supporters were stating how there was 0 proof that any bets were owed and unpaid in April, Assani steps forward with evidence (which Jason doesn't dispute) and they are still defending him.

Quote:
As for any other evidence that JY was busto (with reference in particular to the 18k) well that is still unsubstantiated until the person owed comes forward which is extremely unlikely and in all likelihood, just fabricated by MM as we can tell by his OP - I'll pick out this specifically:



So basically we have, from MM's own account, that let's say that within a week of losing the bet that an anonymous player comes forward and says that JY owes him 18k which stalls MM's payment to JY and then for the next two months (April to June/July) more people come forward and say that JY owes them money which prompted further stalling and not paying - well where is reference to this in JY's messages?

You would think, from a reasonable point of view, that there would be some sort of mention of this hint of freerolling by JY by stating that the reason I haven't paid you the money yet is because of you reportedly owing other people money but all I can see from his texts up to September (which is 2 months past July from where MM has said that he has received notice from other people who are owed money from JY) that he does in fact owe money to JY and is waiting on some sort of staking deal to pay...WTF?

Well I guess he has had more than a year to come up with a concrete story (or so he thought)
There is a lot of stuff being said back and forth. I said I don't know Chris and he is definitely no angel (no one who is involved in a situation like this ever comes out smelling like roses). It doesn't change the fact that Jason OR his bookie screwed multiple people. Having Chris pay on bet that would've never been paid off (see Sheets, Assani, others) doesn't make it more equitable.

A similar situation would be me taking bets from 5 people, 4 of them winning and one losing, and having no capital (for whatever reason - invested, etc), and telling the 4 "oh well my bookie skipped town so I'm waiting on 5th guy to payout." Answer me this: How is anyone getting paid if all 5 won?

Can anyone who defends Jason answer this? Because people who won when the bookie was apparently still in town STILL didn't get paid (see sheets, $500 over 18 months out of 7-8k payout, which is about $28 a month... if you think that is a reasonable payment plan you need to get out of this thread).

That is the situation that Chris and others in this thread who have bet before are looking at it. You need to have capital on hand to pay, not rely solely on losers paying the winners. Otherwise it's a freeroll/scam/no intention of paying.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:23 AM   #963
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
But the texts don't back up MM's story.

Where does he say he suspects he is getting freerolled from any of the texts from July to September 2012?

Instead, as you should know, he acknowledges he owes the bet and is waiting on some sort of staking deal (amongst other reasons) to make inroads into paying it.
I think everyone already knows MM didnt have the money to pay but that doesnt mean he wasnt getting freerolled also.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:26 AM   #964
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Lol this thread is incredible. Looks like they were pretty clearly free rolling each other and it's pretty sad that this all on public display. Also Jason saying "who are you I dont even know you!" is absolutely hilarious. Bud, youre a nobody. Just because some 15 year olds who rail high stakes tables might recognize your name, doesn't mean you have some clout whatsoever.

Also I love the part where MM talks about getting a stake to pay back a sports betting loan. I mean what planet are you guys on?? And who the hell is staking Chris ****ing moneymaker in the first place!?

This whole thread is awesome and depressing at the same time. You both look awful. I'd say Jason looks a little more terrible but for all intents and purposes, I hope no one gets paid and this goes on forever. You're both incredible stupid at best, and broke scamming free rolling degenerates at worst. You give real gamblers a bad name. Can't wait to check out THE TURN next time im in New York though. I'll have the free rolling rigatoni please, and can I get a side of degen-fried scallops?
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:29 AM   #965
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by cheeseisgood View Post
I think everyone already knows MM didnt have the money to pay but that doesnt mean he wasnt getting freerolled also.
That maybe so but where is the indication in MM's texts to JY that he suspected he was being freerolled?

Remember at the time he specifically had knowledge of three people who were owed money by JY and based on this he decided not to pay according to his own OP and therefore you would think his texts would reflect this but clearly that wasn't the case.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:32 AM   #966
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by Poogs View Post
Lol this thread is incredible.

Also Jason saying "who are you I dont even know you!" is absolutely hilarious. Bud, youre a nobody.
It's his money after all that we are talking about, so this stance shouldn't come as a surprise. We, who are voicing our opinions, are doing so at JY and CM's pleasure.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:39 AM   #967
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
That maybe so but where is the indication in MM's texts to JY that he suspected he was being freerolled?

Remember at the time he specifically had knowledge of three people who were owed money by JY and based on this he decided not to pay according to his own OP and therefore you would think his texts would reflect this but clearly that wasn't the case.
well he had to have knowledge of some ppl who got stiffed by JY or else he was just really lucky in guessing that JY stiffs ppl. when he actually got that info is another matter though. since JY has no problem not paying a bet for 18 months, then not paying a bet for a year then learning about freerolling should fit within JY's timeframe for contesting a bet in a timely manner.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:48 AM   #968
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

If I was convicted of a crime I'd rather be stoned to death rather than have me story talked about on NVG. We are all savages. JY and MM must be sick about all of us talking about them.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:56 AM   #969
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

Pretty sure they asked for it. And judging by this tweet, it looks like JY "started it" as far as going public....

"Your 2004 wsop main event champion Chris moneymaker is a scammer and a thief. Over a year and a half for just under 25k and I'm done waiting"

Pretty gross that JY would take it so far when he has to know he was not in any position to pay had MM won. How delusional can one person be. What a drooler IMO.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:58 AM   #970
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
Yes it does matter. If you read the thread you would understand that bookie skipped town, and didn't pay any bets thereafter (according to Jason). If this is true, Chris doesn't owe.
Assuming this is true, JY still has an interest in recovering as an agent for the % of the bet he will receive. Irrespective of this, I don't accept your second premise that '[bookie skipped town] and didn't pay any bets' - I haven't seen any mention of this from what I have read. Happy to be corrected though


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Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
Moneymaker isn't liable to pay a bookie who was never going to pay him.
There is no evidence that he wasn't going to be paid. Any reference to Assani is moot because of the inability of anyone (including Assani) to prove that it wasn't a difficulty in communication that caused the debt not to be settled.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
First off, Jason has admitted 0 fault on his side, despite evidence clearly supporting Assani's version (which no one has disputed). It shows the kind of character Jason is. If he pays off the 2k in one month we will see, but everything else is talk/noise.

An interesting note about Assani: All the pro-Jason Young supporters were stating how there was 0 proof that any bets were owed and unpaid in April, Assani steps forward with evidence (which Jason doesn't dispute) and they are still defending him.
Note the preceding argument above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
There is a lot of stuff being said back and forth. I said I don't know Chris and he is definitely no angel (no one who is involved in a situation like this ever comes out smelling like roses). It doesn't change the fact that Jason OR his bookie screwed multiple people. Having Chris pay on bet that would've never been paid off (see Sheets, Assani, others) doesn't make it more equitable.
Taking each one independently:

Sheets is irrelevant - it occurred in October. No one can refute that JY wasn't out of the business at the time having set up his own restaurant (that betting thread backs this up and his absence) and was making a one-off vouch for Sheets.

Also, if matters came to a head in September between JY and MM where 5 months had passed since MM had lost his bet, most would have considered that MM owed that money having relied on the texts that have recently been noted on this thread and having been supplied by JY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
A similar situation would be me taking bets from 5 people, 4 of them winning and one losing, and having no capital (for whatever reason - invested, etc), and telling the 4 "oh well my bookie skipped town so I'm waiting on 5th guy to payout." Answer me this: How is anyone getting paid if all 5 won?
Your speaking in the hypothetical. Look at the facts that JY has presented with the defence used by MM and interpret whose actions are more unreasonable to come to a conclusion as to whether MM is liable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
Can anyone who defends Jason answer this? Because people who won when the bookie was apparently still in town STILL didn't get paid (see sheets, $500 over 18 months out of 7-8k payout, which is about $28 a month... if you think that is a reasonable payment plan you need to get out of this thread).
Because he was out of the business and is able to separate his wagering affairs from his own personal business to do with his restaurant. And was waiting on MM to come good when he vouched for sheets which, if we go back to the timeline (which is critical for the pro MMs), was only one month after MM gave a text guarantee to JY of being paid back and it is reasonable therefore given the proof he did have that MM owed JY the money to vouch sheets the money.

Also consideration should be given to the character of the two people - again similar to Assani (once given reasonable notice of the debt) - he has acknowledged the debt to sheets and developing a pay back schedule to him (which is largely dependent on MM as it turns out)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverjc View Post
That is the situation that Chris and others in this thread who have bet before are looking at it. You need to have capital on hand to pay, not rely solely on losers paying the winners. Otherwise it's a freeroll/scam/no intention of paying.
There is no proof that JY didn't have sufficient capital to pay MM if he won. In fact, it appears that more than likely he did given MM's OP where he admitted that he would rather let the win ride than require JY to pay out as it suggests that JY (and his bookie if that is relevant) was good to payout if he did indeed win on the bet that is in question.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:05 AM   #971
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by vazdog33 View Post
Pretty sure they asked for it. And judging by this tweet, it looks like JY "started it" as far as going public....

"Your 2004 wsop main event champion Chris moneymaker is a scammer and a thief. Over a year and a half for just under 25k and I'm done waiting"

Pretty gross that JY would take it so far when he has to know he was not in any position to pay had MM won. How delusional can one person be. What a drooler IMO.
If I had the debt owing to sheets on my back, I would have done the exact same thing.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:07 AM   #972
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

And where is sheets' tweet complaining about having to wait so long to be paid out on bets from JY.

Oh wait, JY's a nobody. As such, nobody would care.

Gj trying to use MM's fame against him and blackmailing him into payment. How'd that work out for you?

At least theres blood splattered everywhere now. Stay classy JY.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:10 AM   #973
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

how does moneymaker saying to roll it over, make it likely that whoever was the bookie could pay? wheres the logic in that?

you can say that to broke person too right.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:11 AM   #974
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

apparently JY is not done waiting. LOL
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:15 AM   #975
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Re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503...and then not - see post 656)

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Originally Posted by vazdog33 View Post
And where is sheets' tweet complaining about having to wait so long to be paid out on bets from JY.

Oh wait, JY's a nobody. As such, nobody would care.

Gj trying to use MM's fame against him and blackmailing him into payment. How'd that work out for you?

At least theres blood splattered everywhere now. Stay classy JY.
If you bothered to read my reply to gameover, you would come to the understanding that sheets is irrelevant to this debate. It occurred 6 months after MM lost his bet. Its only relevancy is to the extent of recovery from MM being able to be given to sheets.

Within that time, there is proof via texts that MM has admitted to owing money to JY and come up with various methods to be able to pay JY back.

It is not how it is portrayed in MM's OP that he was given notice of JY owing other people and then decided not to pay.

This is not difficult. Swallow your pride pro MM fans and admit that you were wrong and in fact MM has been giving JY the run around for 18 months and has finally been outed (and being quite generous too given the length of time but I guess he is a world champion after all )
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