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Old 11-25-2019, 07:02 PM   #9851
zica
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Jury's are allowed to disbelieve the defense. It's not like they have to believe everything the defense claims and find the accused not guilty because the prosecution didn't disprove the claims of the defense. It's like, one guy shoots another and claims he did so by accident, that he was aiming beside him, just trying to scare him, but missed. There is zero obligation on the jury to believe this and if they don't they can convict. If there is a benefit to the shooter resulting from the death, like money, the judge certainly wouldn't throw out the conviction just because the jury didn't believe the defense.

Is it reasonably possible that any player could/would play these hands the way Postle did without cheating? Obviously not. It's obvious to me because I'm very familiar with the game. The question is, can they make the jurors familiar enough with poker to recognize that he was cheating or can they bring in experts who can explain to the jury that a good player would not play as the accused played unless he knew his opponents holdings.

The claim that he's just better than any expert witness isn't what he would be claiming because of the comic-book-like play. What he would really be claiming is that he is 50 times better than Phil Ivy. Some folks here seem to think a jury would find that this claim is not beyond the realm of reasonable possibility.

I would liken it to chess. Imagine if some fairly unknown guy played 20 games against the world champion in which the world champion had 90 minutes per game to make all his moves and the unknown guy had 2 minutes and the unknown guy won every game. But then there are lots of other games where the unknown guy loses to average players in standard games. Imo, it's not within the realm of reasonable possibility that he wasn't cheating against the champion.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:04 PM   #9852
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by deuceblocker View Post
There are no criminal charges now, but a civil suit. Presumably there will be other evidence than hand play and win rate.

In the 54o hand you mention, you called two allins for something like 300xBB with 54o. Both players had AK so he had expected profit. Presumably no one is going allin preflop in a cash games without JJ+, AK. It is likely one of them would have AA. It isn't slight risk. He is in bad shape against a pp.If you look at the patterns, he makes similar ridiculous plays postflop, which only work if you know your opponents cards.
I think the 54 hand is more supportive that he is a wild player than a cheater. Why would you play a preflop game when you know the other players hole cards?
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:18 PM   #9853
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
I think the 54 hand is more supportive that he is a wild player than a cheater. Why would you play a preflop game when you know the other players hole cards?
$400 in EV is why.
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Old 11-25-2019, 11:29 PM   #9854
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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I think the 54 hand is more supportive that he is a wild player than a cheater. Why would you play a preflop game when you know the other players hole cards?
He played tons of trash pre because he knew he could play it perfectly post and look like a god(what a moron).
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Old 11-26-2019, 01:07 AM   #9855
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I thought he was all in against two players preflop with this hand.
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Old 11-26-2019, 01:29 AM   #9856
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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You are listing all the things except what I mentioned and what is the most compelling evidence: That he makes correct decisions every time he has the phone in his crotch and not when he doesn't. And plays a very different style as well. That is much different than running good/bad, etc. It all changes based on that one thing. How does the defense explain that whether his phone is in his crotch or not is completely correlated with how he plays, whether he bluffs into only weak hands, whether he calls with weak hands but only when they're winning hands, etc.?

I am in total agreement he cheated. Every single thing points to it.

This is like a murder though without the weapon. It makes juries far more comfortable to pick guilty.

I’m worried this could get bogged down in details. He has plenty of plausible defenses. Enough to cause confusion in a layman.

I can’t believe this hasn’t been figured out and put it to bed. He should be locked up and the casino should compensate the players losses. Total fiasco that has damaged trust.


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Old 11-26-2019, 01:32 AM   #9857
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
I think the 54 hand is more supportive that he is a wild player than a cheater. Why would you play a preflop game when you know the other players hole cards?


This is exactly why you need a witness and some type of proof. Too many hands are debatable.




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Old 11-26-2019, 07:04 AM   #9858
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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ThEy NeEd ReAl EvIdEnCe
(looks at a single hand in a vacuum)
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Old 11-26-2019, 01:09 PM   #9859
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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(looks at a single hand in a vacuum)
That’s hypothetically in a jury trial.

This isn’t going that far. The casino wouldn’t want anymore negative publicity.

He is 100% guilty.

The only question is how much the casino will pay up. And how they will disburse it. All players in the game lost. Even the winners who would have won more money.

If there isn’t any active criminal investigation, I have lost all faith in this country. That it comes down to players having to hire a lawyer and sue the casino when it is painfully obvious that he was bleeding their own customers.
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:29 PM   #9860
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Of all the hands I watched the hand where he busted the guy off the chop with ace 10 on Axxxx was the one that made me think he was cheating the most
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:38 PM   #9861
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Of all the hands I watched the hand where he busted the guy off the chop with ace 10 on Axxxx was the one that made me think he was cheating the most
yea thats the one i think of too. you only make that play if you can literally see your opp hole cards.

the fact that some people in this thread dont see postle as 100% cheating blows my ****ing mind. its as clear cut as they come.
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Old 11-26-2019, 07:41 PM   #9862
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by WateryBoil View Post
yea thats the one i think of too. you only make that play if you can literally see your opp hole cards.

the fact that some people in this thread dont see postle as 100% cheating blows my ****ing mind. its as clear cut as they come.
make this NOT as clear cut as they come.
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Old 11-26-2019, 08:02 PM   #9863
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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make this NOT as clear cut as they come.
Earth isn't flat and the universe was not created in 7 days. Also gravity is real. It could not be more clear cut than that and yet there are are entire armies of hopatrons that either refuse to acknowledge it or do not possess the intelligence to come to the right conclusion.

In other words, what the general public thinks about something is hardly relevant.
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Old 11-26-2019, 08:15 PM   #9864
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Earth isn't flat and the universe was not created in 7 days. Also gravity is real. It could not be more clear cut than that and yet there are are entire armies of hopatrons that either refuse to acknowledge it or do not possess the intelligence to come to the right conclusion.

In other words, what the general public thinks about something is hardly relevant.

but are they banned from juries?
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Old 11-26-2019, 08:17 PM   #9865
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

To the contrary, in fact how I understand the US justice system to function as an outsider the common brain dead are expected to be in a jury at some point.
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Old 11-26-2019, 09:47 PM   #9866
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by WateryBoil View Post
yea thats the one i think of too. you only make that play if you can literally see your opp hole cards.

the fact that some people in this thread dont see postle as 100% cheating blows my ****ing mind. its as clear cut as they come.


He isn’t just a cheat. He is an arrogant cheat that mocked his victims. He brags being a great player knowing everyone’s cards. He can’t even really appear to be a sucker a single hand. He doesn’t spew just one session.

This is sick to watch and I can’t imagine the feeling players must feel seeing the replay knowing he knew their cards.

He may be able to fool the common man, but any experienced player, seeing everything in its entirety, knows this is a complete joke. He stole a lot of money from a lot of players under the protection of the casino.

If he used an electronic device to steal from the casino, he would be locked up. Steal from individuals? You need to hire a lawyer, sue, and pray a jury sees it clearly. Another gamble for the players that they shouldn’t have to make.

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Old 11-26-2019, 09:56 PM   #9867
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

The guy that counterfeited tournament chips in AC got jail time so there's hope.
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Old 11-26-2019, 10:59 PM   #9868
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnutt View Post
He isn’t just a cheat. He is an arrogant cheat that mocked his victims. He brags being a great player knowing everyone’s cards. He can’t even really appear to be a sucker a single hand. He doesn’t spew just one session.

This is sick to watch and I can’t imagine the feeling players must feel seeing the replay knowing he knew their cards.

He may be able to fool the common man, but any experienced player, seeing everything in its entirety, knows this is a complete joke. He stole a lot of money from a lot of players under the protection of the casino.

If he used an electronic device to steal from the casino, he would be locked up. Steal from individuals? You need to hire a lawyer, sue, and pray a jury sees it clearly. Another gamble for the players that they shouldn’t have to make.

Sad




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I'd like to elaborate on the bolded part .... It is the casino that was offering a "fair game" to all those players cheated by Postle, over an extended period of time, under conditions created by the casino (RFID) that the casino accordingly was obligated to police.

The casino is in no diffferent a position than if it ran a card game where a cheating team could observe cards via some secret mirror the casino built into the room.

The bottom line, no different than allowing Potripper access to player hole cards.
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Old 11-27-2019, 12:11 AM   #9869
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
I'd like to elaborate on the bolded part .... It is the casino that was offering a "fair game" to all those players cheated by Postle, over an extended period of time, under conditions created by the casino (RFID) that the casino accordingly was obligated to police.



The casino is in no diffferent a position than if it ran a card game where a cheating team could observe cards via some secret mirror the casino built into the room.



The bottom line, no different than allowing Potripper access to player hole cards.

I agree. They advertised his prowess to get more victims. They took zero steps to protect the players once there was suspicion. Their initial investigation was a joke and falsely provided assurances that the game was on the up and up.

The casino is going to get slaughtered. This ain’t Nevada where the casinos drive the economy and have the protection of the government.

The only question is how/how much to compensate the victims. My guess is that they will pay every player $ * number of sessions played.




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Old 11-27-2019, 03:24 AM   #9870
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

That's something I hadn't considered, how much to compensate. Before I just assumed they would get whatever they lost in pots to Mike but I wonder if they can/will claim emotional stress and even humiliation from being cheated and sometimes laughed at.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:34 AM   #9871
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)




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Old 11-27-2019, 07:39 AM   #9872
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

So, that’s how it’s done...

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Old 11-27-2019, 09:32 AM   #9873
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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That's something I hadn't considered, how much to compensate. Before I just assumed they would get whatever they lost in pots to Mike but I wonder if they can/will claim emotional stress and even humiliation from being cheated and sometimes laughed at.
They are asking for punitive damages, which is a little far-fetched, but is probably designed to get a larger settlement. It might be a problem getting fully compensated for their losses after lawyers fees. It is unlikely this goes to court. If it does, the plaintiffs will have a strong case. The question is how much it gets settled for.
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:43 AM   #9874
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

How's business been at stones lately? Has anyone seen JFK?
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:56 AM   #9875
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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They are asking for punitive damages, which is a little far-fetched, but is probably designed to get a larger settlement. It might be a problem getting fully compensated for their losses after lawyers fees. It is unlikely this goes to court. If it does, the plaintiffs will have a strong case. The question is how much it gets settled for.
I agree.

AFAIK, if there is a criminal investigation, those with a civil complaint will wait until after the criminal investigation is complete to see if the authorities proceed with charges and get a conviction because that makes the civil complainants job simpler. Is it possible for anyone to know if there is an ongoing investigation by government agencies that could result in a criminal charge, or even by a casino regulator that could result in a finding of fault?
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