Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-10-2019, 06:48 PM   #7351
kiddo1987
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 144
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
If you want to define Chris Fowler and Kirk Herbstreit and Dick Vitale as their a-list, fine, I agree he's not that.

But he's a very significant player at ESPN. Their WSOP coverage has made them a lot of money and he is the lead voice on those broadcasts for the last 17 years. He makes plenty of money, which was my point.
Lon commentates a niche sport/hobby on ESPN that barely gets any coverage outside of like 1-2 weeks a year during ESPN’s “offseason”. I think he’s a great commentator but he is no where near the A-list at ESPN. He’s probably not even in the top 90% salary wise of on air talent.
kiddo1987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 06:54 PM   #7352
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiddo1987 View Post
Lon commentates a niche sport/hobby on ESPN that barely gets any coverage outside of like 1-2 weeks a year during ESPN’s “offseason”. I think he’s a great commentator but he is no where near the A-list at ESPN. He’s probably not even in the top 90% salary wise of on air talent.
Again, I agree, he's not Dick Vitale.

But this understates how much content the WSOP provides to ESPN. ESPN has to fill a lot of hours during the summer when the only major sport going on is baseball. WSOP coverage is fairly cheap to produce, and gets decent ratings as compared to what they could be putting on (MLS, tennis, WNBA) at that point.

And he's been working there 17 years. Which means he's getting periodic raises as all long-term ESPN employees do.

I don't know where he ranks in terms of his salary (bear in mind, my "A list" comment was really about where he stands in terms of poker, not where he stands in comparison to Scott Van Pelt), but he makes enough money that he doesn't have to do paid appearances at Stones Gambling Hall.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 06:55 PM   #7353
soapdodger
adept
 
soapdodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: baath time
Posts: 984
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopstick View Post
Here's a streamable link of the clip.


loooool
lol indeed. mike's early work was not his best work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redgrape View Post
Funny hand, Postle's hand is not picked up by the reader. He just happens to try to get his cards to scan for some reason? Not really any evidence because the dealer may have just said something, but its another hand where Postle behaves strangely.
tbf seat one often has problems picking up the cards in many streams. pretty sure someone mentioned in here that they were told that at stones one time. funny when it does read he has the mighty T5o
soapdodger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 06:56 PM   #7354
MasterLJ
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MasterLJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 13,684
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Not sure if it has been discussed before, but at some point in time in the last 6-12 months, seat assignment on stream was supposedly random and pre-assigned before you sat down. Any of you all who played on stream have insight? Postle's seating distribution was never random, which is another link to possible co-conspirators.
MasterLJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 06:56 PM   #7355
jal300
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 326
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
There's a lot wrong here.

1. Falsely accusing someone of a criminal act is not only generally defamatory, it's defamation per se in most states, meaning you don't have to prove damages. (The exception is some people may be "defamation-proof". So, for instance, falsely accusing OJ Simpson of a crime might not be actionable if his reputation is already as a violent criminal who got a way with murder.)

2. We are not sure that there is even such a thing as an "involuntary public figure". The Supreme Court defined a limited purpose public figure as someone who voluntarily injects themselves into a public issue or concern.

It is THEORIZED that perhaps someone as notable as a Manson might be an involuntary public figure. But the cases are in conflict as to whether that is true, and in general, the rule is you CANNOT be a public figure merely because of what others say about you, absent some sort of voluntary accession to publicity.

3. Postle is a classic limited purpose public figure as to Stones' live streams, because he voluntarily appeared on those streams, gave interviews, tweeted, and otherwise sought publicity as to that limited purpose.
Falsely accusing (the accuser knows that it's false) and accusing (charging/asserting someone has, which has yet to be proven) is not the same thing. If it were; anyone acquitted/found not guilty could then turn around and sue the prosecutor for defamation, generally it doesn't work that way. If you note; I never said anything about a false accusation, I believe I said "merely accusing someone."

An involuntary public figure is a well established concept when it comes to defamation. As an example, Taylor Swift and Charles Manson are both public figures. Swift, voluntarily because she chose a high profile profession and "made it", whereas (although I could be wrong) Manson probably didn't want to get caught/arrested/charged, but he did and involuntarily became a public figure.
jal300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:00 PM   #7356
Natamus
Tripped and Fell
 
Natamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Where the buggalo roam
Posts: 16,373
Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Again, I agree, he's not Dick Vitale.



But this understates how much content the WSOP provides to ESPN. ESPN has to fill a lot of hours during the summer when the only major sport going on is baseball. WSOP coverage is fairly cheap to produce, and gets decent ratings as compared to what they could be putting on (MLS, tennis, WNBA) at that point.



And he's been working there 17 years. Which means he's getting periodic raises as all long-term ESPN employees do.



I don't know where he ranks in terms of his salary (bear in mind, my "A list" comment was really about where he stands in terms of poker, not where he stands in comparison to Scott Van Pelt), but he makes enough money that he doesn't have to do paid appearances at Stones Gambling Hall.


Thank god (I mean Mike Postle) you know exactly how much money Lon makes, how much he needs for his lifestyle and whether or not he needs to do paid appearances during his non ESPN time.

I had no idea you were his agent or wife. Oh wait you’re just a lawdude with way too much time to argue on his hands who is now derailing the thread Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)
Natamus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:07 PM   #7357
Outoftime44444
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 740
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
There's a lot wrong here.

1. Falsely accusing someone of a criminal act is not only generally defamatory, it's defamation per se in most states, meaning you don't have to prove damages. (The exception is some people may be "defamation-proof". So, for instance, falsely accusing OJ Simpson of a crime might not be actionable if his reputation is already as a violent criminal who got a way with murder.)

2. We are not sure that there is even such a thing as an "involuntary public figure". The Supreme Court defined a limited purpose public figure as someone who voluntarily injects themselves into a public issue or concern.

It is THEORIZED that perhaps someone as notable as a Manson might be an involuntary public figure. But the cases are in conflict as to whether that is true, and in general, the rule is you CANNOT be a public figure merely because of what others say about you, absent some sort of voluntary accession to publicity.

3. Postle is a classic limited purpose public figure as to Stones' live streams, because he voluntarily appeared on those streams, gave interviews, tweeted, and otherwise sought publicity as to that limited purpose.
Also it is a public issue (cheating people on live stream out of $350,000 or more!)

Postle would get the **** anti-slapped out of him in California.

Any written or oral statement or writing made in a place open to the public or a public forum in connection with an issue of public interest is protected.

The statute allows you to file a special motion to strike a complaint filed against you based on an "act in furtherance of [your] right of petition or free speech under the United States or California Constitution in connection with a public issue." Cal. Civ. Proc. Code § 425.16. If a court rules in your favor, it will dismiss the plaintiff's case early in the litigation and award you attorneys' fees and court costs.
Outoftime44444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:07 PM   #7358
Redgrape
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,377
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLJ View Post
Not sure if it has been discussed before, but at some point in time in the last 6-12 months, seat assignment on stream was supposedly random and pre-assigned before you sat down. Any of you all who played on stream have insight? Postle's seating distribution was never random, which is another link to possible co-conspirators.
He was in seat 2 over 60% of the time in his last 25 sessions so either someone colluded with him or did him a favor.
Redgrape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:14 PM   #7359
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
Falsely accusing (the accuser knows that it's false) and accusing (charging/asserting someone has, which has yet to be proven) is not the same thing. If it were; anyone acquitted/found not guilty could then turn around and sue the prosecutor for defamation, generally it doesn't work that way. If you note; I never said anything about a false accusation, I believe I said "merely accusing someone."

An involuntary public figure is a well established concept when it comes to defamation. As an example, Taylor Swift and Charles Manson are both public figures. Swift, voluntarily because she chose a high profile profession and "made it", whereas (although I could be wrong) Manson probably didn't want to get caught/arrested/charged, but he did and involuntarily became a public figure.
1. The reason nobody can sue a prosecutor is that prosecutors have legal immunity from suit. The only exception in most jurisdictions is a suit for malicious prosecution, which requires a prosecution without probable cause and motivated by malice. But merely bringing false charges is not actionable.

2. If the plaintiff is not a public figure, a false accusation of a crime is actionable defamation, unless done non-negligently. A true accusation of a crime is not defamation, of course.

3. If there's a such a thing as an involuntary public figure, yes, Manson would have qualified. But if you read Gertz v. Robert Welch, you will see that the theoretical possibility of an involuntary public figure is said to be "exceedingly rare", and the lower courts have split as to whether the category really exists in any practical way. In cases where it has been asserted, the argument has almost always lost.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:18 PM   #7360
Angry_Polak
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 72
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLJ View Post
Not sure if it has been discussed before, but at some point in time in the last 6-12 months, seat assignment on stream was supposedly random and pre-assigned before you sat down. Any of you all who played on stream have insight? Postle's seating distribution was never random, which is another link to possible co-conspirators.
That rule was almost never enforced. Everyone pretty much sat where they wanted. in Veronica and friends we always sat in the same seats
Angry_Polak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:18 PM   #7361
wiiziwiig
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,407
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natamus View Post
Thank god (I mean Mike Postle) you know exactly how much money Lon makes, how much he needs for his lifestyle and whether or not he needs to do paid appearances during his non ESPN time.

I had no idea you were his agent or wife. Oh wait you’re just a lawdude with way too much time to argue on his hands who is now derailing the thread Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)
Why do you keep bringing up the fact that hes a lawyer when the topic youre discussing has nothing to do with law? All he is saying is that we shouldn't underestimate the exposure of the stream and the marketing it brought to the venue. You are behaving like a child throwing a tantrum when something doesn't go your way. I don't care if you argue with him, lawdude can handle himself, but lay off the lawyer bullshit, especially when it doesn't pertain to the conversation.
wiiziwiig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:20 PM   #7362
001001
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 45
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmbxr9 View Post
It's not the exact same color blue, but the Pineapple OFC app that myself and like 50% of the poker room I play in use 24/7 has a blue background.

Just slightly playing devil's advocate
It doesn't hit on that image or screen. The tolerances in the range its looking for are pretty damn tight - I spent some time refining it

Just like with the glasses there is no lighting or reflection that would push that into being in range - earlier in this thread before we knew it was the chrome key from PokerGFX we searched high and low for what app would produce that blue and came up with nothing

That said - the idea here was to throw up more leads to look at. It is important that whatever is found is corroborated before anybody is thrown under the bus but I have a feeling that an analysis of phone use across (plan is after detecting the blue screens to detect his phone placement and texting with a model) all of the live streams there would be a statistical significance that correlates with his hand results

I'm likely going to have a chance to publish the code over the weekend along with the 600GB+ archive of raw video so that others can contribute to it and help run it
001001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:23 PM   #7363
wiiziwiig
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,407
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Polak View Post
That rule was almost never enforced. Everyone pretty much sat where they wanted. in Veronica and friends we always sat in the same seats
Hey Veronica, really enjoyed your podcast yesterday with Joey. Keep up the amazing work!
wiiziwiig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:25 PM   #7364
Natamus
Tripped and Fell
 
Natamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Where the buggalo roam
Posts: 16,373
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiiziwiig View Post
Why do you keep bringing up the fact that hes a lawyer when the topic youre discussing has nothing to do with law? All he is saying is that we shouldn't underestimate the exposure of the stream and the marketing it brought to the venue. You are behaving like a child throwing a tantrum when something doesn't go your way. I don't care if you argue with him, lawdude can handle himself, but lay off the lawyer bullshit, especially when it doesn't pertain to the conversation.


Thread Captain,

I’m not talking to you right now, kindly piss off to bother another poster
Natamus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:26 PM   #7365
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natamus View Post
Thank god (I mean Mike Postle) you know exactly how much money Lon makes, how much he needs for his lifestyle and whether or not he needs to do paid appearances during his non ESPN time.

I had no idea you were his agent or wife. Oh wait you’re just a lawdude with way too much time to argue on his hands who is now derailing the thread Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)
This is your second post in a row containing no content and lots of insults.

I think you should probably stop now.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:27 PM   #7366
001001
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 45
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alberthofmann View Post
Would love to hear more on that, which programming language etc.
Python + OpenCV

The color part isn't that hard - it's just a ton of data processing, more interesting is building a model to find people and the phone and phone positions

I plan on publishing the code + details + data + all results
001001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:28 PM   #7367
agamblerthen
journeyman
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: SF
Posts: 363
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

On a lighter note, we have RaisingTheNuts' take on the situation:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYxcXlHtS5A

Last edited by agamblerthen; 10-10-2019 at 07:51 PM. Reason: To attempt to embed YouTube video properly
agamblerthen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:30 PM   #7368
Jay Why
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lundun
Posts: 945
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redgrape View Post
He was in seat 2 over 60% of the time in his last 25 sessions so either someone colluded with him or did him a favor.
It has been explained that tournament seats were selected randomly, but players could choose where to sit in cash games, and he chose that one as his back was to the camera most of the time.
Jay Why is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:32 PM   #7369
jal300
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 326
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
1. The reason nobody can sue a prosecutor is that prosecutors have legal immunity from suit. The only exception in most jurisdictions is a suit for malicious prosecution, which requires a prosecution without probable cause and motivated by malice. But merely bringing false charges is not actionable.

2. If the plaintiff is not a public figure, a false accusation of a crime is actionable defamation, unless done non-negligently. A true accusation of a crime is not defamation, of course.

3. If there's a such a thing as an involuntary public figure, yes, Manson would have qualified. But if you read Gertz v. Robert Welch, you will see that the theoretical possibility of an involuntary public figure is said to be "exceedingly rare", and the lower courts have split as to whether the category really exists in any practical way. In cases where it has been asserted, the argument has almost always lost.
Again, a false accusation and an accusation are two different things. That's all I am saying. Defamation is not limited to being falsely accused of a crime, it's any statement that is false and causes harm to the defamed party's reputation. Of course an accusation could cause harm to the reputation of the accused, that doesn't mean the accusation was a false accusation. Knowingly accusing someone of something when in fact the accuser knows it is false is very very different than accusing/asserting something about someone based on what evidence I may have at the time to assert/accuse such a thing. It's why "it was my opinion when I said it" is one of the simplest defenses for defamation. Saying something one knows is false and saying something that turns out to be false is not the same thing: the first would be a false accusation, the other is just an accusation. People assert/accuse things all the time in daily life that end up not being true, but that doesn't necessarily mean its defamation.
jal300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:35 PM   #7370
wiiziwiig
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,407
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natamus View Post
Thread Captain,

I’m not talking to you right now, kindly piss off to bother another poster
sorry, i am not thread captain, i am just highly allergic to bullshit.
wiiziwiig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:36 PM   #7371
lawdude
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,305
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jal300 View Post
Again, a false accusation and an accusation are two different things. That's all I am saying. Defamation is not limited to being falsely accused of a crime, it's any statement that is false and causes harm to the defamed party's reputation. Of course an accusation could cause harm to the reputation of the accused, that doesn't mean the accusation was a false accusation. Knowingly accusing someone of something when in fact the accuser knows it is false is very very different than accusing/asserting something about someone based on what evidence I may have at the time to assert/accuse such a thing. It's why "it was my opinion when I said it" is one of the simplest defenses for defamation.
Pure opinion is not defamatory. But opinions that imply factual claims can be actionable. See Milkovich v. Lorain Journal Co.
lawdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:42 PM   #7372
jal300
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 326
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Pure opinion is not defamatory. But opinions that imply factual claims can be actionable. See Milkovich v. Lorain Journal Co.
I never said they cannot be actionable. Just like I cannot say every accusation that turns out to be false is in fact a false accusation that would be deemed defamatory.
jal300 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:44 PM   #7373
Patrick408
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 94
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Polak View Post
That rule was almost never enforced. Everyone pretty much sat where they wanted. in Veronica and friends we always sat in the same seats
Thanks for chiming in. I remember early on in the thread, someone mentioned Postle liked to show up early for the streams and locked up seat 2, do you remember seeing him do that? Good luck with the lawsuit, I hope you all get your money back and hopefully the full truth comes out and appreciate you coming forward.
Patrick408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:44 PM   #7374
swivet
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NH
Posts: 102
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by agamblerthen View Post
On a lighter note, we have RaisingTheNuts' take on the situation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYxcXlHtS5A
"The situation is non-compus mentus"

I spit out my hot tea!!!
swivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2019, 07:44 PM   #7375
SimpleRick
veteran
 
SimpleRick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,432
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

SimpleRick is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive