Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-23-2019, 09:39 AM   #9826
zica
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 944
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovedaphils View Post
I'm comparing it to random events because this is what middle America thinks of gambling.

He played badly? Ok the 49o why is it a bad play? Every once in a while someone plays the 49o. Ok so it's possible that people play it and win with it. Jury may buy this, we as poker players won't in Mike Postle's context.

If you think a random jury comprised of 12 people or however amount drawn from middle America is going to grasp this to the extent needed to make an informed decision I think that is a stretch at best.
Has a California Civil Court Lawyer already posted how many juror's need to find liability? If I understood what I read, it's 3/4's of them.
zica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2019, 11:27 AM   #9827
AngusThermopyle
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AngusThermopyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 乱
Posts: 14,925
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zica View Post
Has a California Civil Court Lawyer already posted how many juror's need to find liability? If I understood what I read, it's 3/4's of them.
While you are right about the California rule, you are wrong about the court in this case.

They filed the suit in federal court.

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 48 states that a federal civil jury must begin with at least 6 and no more than 12 members, and that the verdict must be unanimous unless the parties stipulate otherwise.
AngusThermopyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2019, 05:25 PM   #9828
gt_ie
adept
 
gt_ie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 881
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
The Fifth Amendment can be invoked during a civil matter .... There may be consequences in the context of the civil matter, but a person can clearly invoke a 5th Amendment right.
Yes, you can plead the fifth, but in a criminal trial the jury will be told that they can not hold that against you. In a civil trial theyíll tell the jury that they can take into consideration the fact that you pled the 5th and draw their own conclusions. And any juror will almost certainly conclude that you have something to hide and it will turn out poorly for you.
gt_ie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2019, 08:37 PM   #9829
zica
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 944
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
While you are right about the California rule, you are wrong about the court in this case.

They filed the suit in federal court.

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 48 states that a federal civil jury must begin with at least 6 and no more than 12 members, and that the verdict must be unanimous unless the parties stipulate otherwise.
Oh, tyvm.
zica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2019, 09:52 PM   #9830
Crane
old hand
 
Crane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,375
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I'm laying 8/5 Postle never sees a courtroom.
Crane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2019, 10:25 PM   #9831
DonKingFishys
stranger
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 7
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane View Post
I'm laying 8/5 Postle never sees a courtroom.
Just as a fun Bet Iíll take your 8-5 for Ä5
& if I win then give it to charity & if you win then do the Same.
Iím a Uk Lawyer or Solicitors is what we are called in the uk 🇬🇧
There are at the moment 76 People doing what we call a Class action Lawsuit.
All being done with at least 1 lawyer & multiple expert witnesses including a poker instructor for the Jury.
There is less of a burden of proof in a civil case & I feel with all the evidence as it is that it is a very winnable case & itís more than likely that now itís a Federal case that it could turn in to a corporate case with 76+ victims. It will be well bankrolled as you have 76 Gamblers wanting big chunks of money back & each claimant will have their own Evidence on top with how much they can prove they lost. That would be too time consuming & doing it as a class action lawsuit means less delays & a quicker Result
DonKingFishys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2019, 10:34 PM   #9832
deuceblocker
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2,255
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is this is technically not a class action suit, but has many plaintiffs.

Not sure what is meant by doesn't see a courtroom. 95% of cases are settled before trial. Usually, they are settled after depositions, so probably Postle will have to testify being questioned by the plaintiffs' attorneys, but not in court with a judge and jury.
deuceblocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 02:06 AM   #9833
golfnutt
banned
 
golfnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,969
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mukdukaluk View Post
Probably low. Would have been big during poker boom like ub/ab was
Care to revise your statement. I am here because of national news.
golfnutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 02:23 AM   #9834
e1cnr
old hand
 
e1cnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,884
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane View Post
I'm laying 8/5 Postle never sees a courtroom.
thrown out, settled, or epsteined?
e1cnr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 12:56 AM   #9835
golfnutt
banned
 
golfnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,969
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I finally got caught up on everything. I have played all types of poker for 25 years.

He is either:
A) God
B) Greatest poker player in history
C) Cheating

The casino is going to get slaughtered in this case. Thereís no way they get away with advertising and profiting off a crooked game. Every player was led to the proverbial slaughter. Publicly.

They better find a witness or proof of device. Trying to argue that someone couldnít run that good probably isnít enough proof. He is a professional. Each individual hand on its own is fine. Iíve seen much worse play.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
golfnutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 03:01 AM   #9836
magoo
old hand
 
magoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,282
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

All this attention on one "caught" person. I wonder about broader casino picture. Google gets fined $$$ by Feds. Facebook gets fined $$$. AT&T huge fine $$$. Ford and GM get Fed heat. Guess casinos are operated by monks, because I never heard of single CORPORATE operated casino in trouble with the Federal Government.

Last edited by magoo; 11-25-2019 at 03:07 AM.
magoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 11:26 AM   #9837
Eponymous
Photoshop Comic Genius
 
Eponymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: How many letters do we have for thi
Posts: 4,572
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnutt View Post
They better find a witness or proof of device. Trying to argue that someone couldnít run that good probably isnít enough proof. He is a professional. Each individual hand on its own is fine. Iíve seen much worse play.
But they don't need to just argue that someone couldn't run that good, and they don't have to look at each individual hand on its own. It's when you contrast his decisions and playing approach over the entire collection of hands when his phone is in his crotch vs. when it's not that it is easily demonstrable even to non-poker players that it is only explained by cheating.

All that would be necessary in a civil trial is to show that cheating explains the facts better than any non-cheating explanation the defendants may have. And they need to have an explanation. If the plaintiffs show evidence supporting cheating and the defendants show nothing, the plaintiffs win in a civil trial.
Eponymous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 12:03 PM   #9838
deuceblocker
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2,255
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

All this focus on Postle. It was presumably JFK who was running a blatantly crooked game on a live stream. He may never be seen at Stones again.

The plaintiffs probably have technical and eye witness evidence to the cheating, but it won't be released until depositions. The plaintiffs will call poker and math expert witnesses. If the defense calls expert witnesses, it will be easy to make fools of them.

Stones isn't going to want the case to go to trial, and have more stories on the news about this. It isn't how it works that if you did something you go to trial and hope the other side can't prove it. They don't need to prove it anyway in a civil case. Even in a criminal case, people who are obviously guilty plead guilty. They don't go to trial hoping the prosecution can't prove it, and get 3x or whatever the sentence if convicted.

Some people here have been watching too many dramatic TV shows and movies.
deuceblocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 12:07 PM   #9839
jjjou812
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,551
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by magoo View Post
All this attention on one "caught" person. I wonder about broader casino picture. Google gets fined $$$ by Feds. Facebook gets fined $$$. AT&T huge fine $$$. Ford and GM get Fed heat. Guess casinos are operated by monks, because I never heard of single CORPORATE operated casino in trouble with the Federal Government.
It will probably remain that way for your lifetime because the Feds don't control the gambling laws, the state governments do.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 12:23 PM   #9840
golfnutt
banned
 
golfnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,969
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eponymous View Post
But they don't need to just argue that someone couldn't run that good, and they don't have to look at each individual hand on its own. It's when you contrast his decisions and playing approach over the entire collection of hands when his phone is in his crotch vs. when it's not that it is easily demonstrable even to non-poker players that it is only explained by cheating.

All that would be necessary in a civil trial is to show that cheating explains the facts better than any non-cheating explanation the defendants may have. And they need to have an explanation. If the plaintiffs show evidence supporting cheating and the defendants show nothing, the plaintiffs win in a civil trial.
I politely disagree.

I donít think he will he found guilty without definitive proof. Every individual hand he plays is fine. All explainable. Especially by a long-term poker pro. He will absolutely bring in witnesses that will defend him. You already have them here. He is a winning professional poker player.

You have one internal investigation saying there was nothing amiss. Pretty powerful statement that he was cleared.


His defense:
-pro
-luck isnít illegal
-he is allowed to look at phone
-cleared by one investigation
-multiple witnesses that will defend him (his play and history)
-no evidence of tampering (currently)
-the players who lost suck at cards and are bitter
-every single hand on its own is explainable
-he lost hands
-rfid makes errors and those werenít his cards (it does happen)
-were other people even involved and could one person possibly do it on his own

More than enough to cause confusion and doubt with a jury.

Iím 99.9% sure he cheated. I guess that does leave an out. They need to figure out how and be able to reproduce it at a minimum.
golfnutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 12:30 PM   #9841
Angrist
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,883
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Wouldn't be surprised if JFK or Postle flips on the other.

Or if a third person was in on it from the tech side.
Angrist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 01:26 PM   #9842
lovedaphils
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 502
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnutt View Post
I politely disagree.

I donít think he will he found guilty without definitive proof. Every individual hand he plays is fine. All explainable. Especially by a long-term poker pro. He will absolutely bring in witnesses that will defend him. You already have them here. He is a winning professional poker player.

You have one internal investigation saying there was nothing amiss. Pretty powerful statement that he was cleared.


His defense:
-pro
-luck isnít illegal
-he is allowed to look at phone
-cleared by one investigation
-multiple witnesses that will defend him (his play and history)
-no evidence of tampering (currently)
-the players who lost suck at cards and are bitter
-every single hand on its own is explainable
-he lost hands
-rfid makes errors and those werenít his cards (it does happen)
-were other people even involved and could one person possibly do it on his own

More than enough to cause confusion and doubt with a jury.

Iím 99.9% sure he cheated. I guess that does leave an out. They need to figure out how and be able to reproduce it at a minimum.
just visiting this post, (tx)
lovedaphils is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 01:27 PM   #9843
lovedaphils
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 502
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
Wouldn't be surprised if JFK or Postle flips on the other.

Or if a third person was in on it from the tech side.
THIS is where I think the rubber meets the road.

JFK specifically.
lovedaphils is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 02:44 PM   #9844
Videopro
Making TV
 
Videopro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,674
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Someone mentiond above what i think this will be the key to a conviction or a guilty verdict in a civil case.

Recreate the phone with the card graphics.
Videopro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 02:51 PM   #9845
Gzesh
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UTG
Posts: 5,702
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by magoo View Post
All this attention on one "caught" person. I wonder about broader casino picture. Google gets fined $$$ by Feds. Facebook gets fined $$$. AT&T huge fine $$$. Ford and GM get Fed heat. Guess casinos are operated by monks, because I never heard of single CORPORATE operated casino in trouble with the Federal Government.
That you have not heard of something is hardly probative of whether it exists ...

Google FinCEN and Venetian, then you will have heard of one .....
Gzesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 03:10 PM   #9846
magoo
old hand
 
magoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,282
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
It will probably remain that way for your lifetime because the Feds don't control the gambling laws, the state governments do.
State "gaming boards" "gaming commissions" don't "control". They operate in tandem and are extensions of corporate casino operations within many state governments. That is very problematic.
magoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 04:48 PM   #9847
Eponymous
Photoshop Comic Genius
 
Eponymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: How many letters do we have for thi
Posts: 4,572
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnutt View Post
I politely disagree.

I donít think he will he found guilty without definitive proof.

...

More than enough to cause confusion and doubt with a jury.
Fair enough. I was just pointing out that if it were to go to a civil trial, the burden isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt. All they have to show is that the set of facts presented are more likely explained by him cheating than not. And when you connect the 180 degree difference in how he plays when the phone is in his crotch vs. when it's not, I think a jury would not be swayed by the seeds of doubt that you listed, but it's obviously just conjecture at this point.

It may be that I have more faith in the average intellect of a typical jury than I should. I served on a jury for one civil trial and one criminal trial, and I found the jurors to be quite reasonable on both. Certainly this won't always be the case.
Eponymous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 06:01 PM   #9848
golfnutt
banned
 
golfnutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,969
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eponymous View Post
Fair enough. I was just pointing out that if it were to go to a civil trial, the burden isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt. All they have to show is that the set of facts presented are more likely explained by him cheating than not. And when you connect the 180 degree difference in how he plays when the phone is in his crotch vs. when it's not, I think a jury would not be swayed by the seeds of doubt that you listed, but it's obviously just conjecture at this point.



It may be that I have more faith in the average intellect of a typical jury than I should. I served on a jury for one civil trial and one criminal trial, and I found the jurors to be quite reasonable on both. Certainly this won't always be the case.

I myself think he is guilty. I wouldnít feel comfortable at all putting a long-time professional poker player in jail who beat a bunch of donks with look how he played different hands. There is no chance you can explain it this very well to a jury.

This isnít the same as flipping coins. There are tells and betting patterns. It is a game of skill. He is a skilled player. People do run hot.

Half of poker players blame the dealer for their cards. Very, very superstitious bunch.

He will say he was looking at the delayed stream on his phone to get information on his opponents. Or sports scores.

He has defenders. There is doubt he cheated. Every single hand is explainable though.

You have people in here defending his KK fold. He put the other guy on Aces. Didnít feel it. Other hand he gambled that they both had non-suited high cards and took a slight risk with his 5-4. Different players.

Someone will claim, rightfully, that he played the cards wrong if he knew the other playersí hole cards. Then you get into he is acting to pretend he doesnít know their cards. That the pauses are by design. It isnít going to fly.

They need real evidence. The hope is that they will get in through discovery. The fact that he hasnít been arrested/charged makes me wonder if they even have anything on him.

Did he possibly pull off the perfect crime in front of the world? No witnesses and nobody can definitively say how he cheated?

Incredible story. It will be interesting to see the turn and river.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
golfnutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 06:12 PM   #9849
deuceblocker
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2,255
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

There are no criminal charges now, but a civil suit. Presumably there will be other evidence than hand play and win rate.

In the 54o hand you mention, you called two allins for something like 300xBB with 54o. Both players had AK so he had expected profit. Presumably no one is going allin preflop in a cash games without JJ+, AK. It is likely one of them would have AA. It isn't slight risk. He is in bad shape against a pp.If you look at the patterns, he makes similar ridiculous plays postflop, which only work if you know your opponents cards.
deuceblocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 06:37 PM   #9850
Eponymous
Photoshop Comic Genius
 
Eponymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: How many letters do we have for thi
Posts: 4,572
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnutt View Post
I myself think he is guilty. I wouldnít feel comfortable at all putting a long-time professional poker player in jail who beat a bunch of donks with look how he played different hands. There is no chance you can explain it this very well to a jury.

This isnít the same as flipping coins. There are tells and betting patterns. It is a game of skill. He is a skilled player. People do run hot.

Half of poker players blame the dealer for their cards. Very, very superstitious bunch.

He will say he was looking at the delayed stream on his phone to get information on his opponents. Or sports scores.

He has defenders. There is doubt he cheated. Every single hand is explainable though.

You have people in here defending his KK fold. He put the other guy on Aces. Didnít feel it. Other hand he gambled that they both had non-suited high cards and took a slight risk with his 5-4. Different players.

Someone will claim, rightfully, that he played the cards wrong if he knew the other playersí hole cards. Then you get into he is acting to pretend he doesnít know their cards. That the pauses are by design. It isnít going to fly.

They need real evidence. The hope is that they will get in through discovery. The fact that he hasnít been arrested/charged makes me wonder if they even have anything on him.

Did he possibly pull off the perfect crime in front of the world? No witnesses and nobody can definitively say how he cheated?

Incredible story. It will be interesting to see the turn and river.
You are listing all the things except what I mentioned and what is the most compelling evidence: That he makes correct decisions every time he has the phone in his crotch and not when he doesn't. And plays a very different style as well. That is much different than running good/bad, etc. It all changes based on that one thing. How does the defense explain that whether his phone is in his crotch or not is completely correlated with how he plays, whether he bluffs into only weak hands, whether he calls with weak hands but only when they're winning hands, etc.?
Eponymous is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive