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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:13 PM   #4851
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Not sure where your horribly spelt/punctuated hatred is coming from, but he was pointing out that your post made no sense. It would be cool if you explained it rather than going off on him. I was confused by your post as well.
Oh yeah? Listen to you.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:36 PM   #4852
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Anyone like to take a bet that eventually , say within 2 years , an RNG will be proven rigged or bypassed?
The last guy who wanted to make a bet in this thread was a slight winner at 5NL with a $100 bankroll, so bets aren't taken all too seriously.

But you've gotten 2 offers if you escrow, so please go for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleDeezie View Post
But to me, on Pokerstars, it seems as if the person who makes the final raise preflop in limit hold'em is more likely to complete their hand postflop. For instance, say I raise pf with AJs and someone three bets me with ATo, then they have a better chance than normal of hitting their three outer 10. I've played 10's of thousands of hands on PS, so I'm not just ranting about some bad beat story...but IMO, it seems PS is somehow rewarding aggression with increased odds.
Got it, cap with AJs pre.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:51 PM   #4853
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Oh yeah? Listen to you.
?
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:30 PM   #4854
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
I am a computer programmer too btw. Let's do a thought experiment just to put our minds at ease. What if, just for the sake of argument, Stars had a perfectly good RNG, but chose to either shuffle multiple decks and pick the one they want at any given moment, or just keep running the RNG until they got a deck favorable to what they want?
(snip)
In theory, this kind of riggage would never show up on an aggregate card distribution layout would it? I dunno maybe suckouts favor certain cards, and new/bad players would need to suckout more often. But that could be offset when the good player doesn't suckout.
What theory says this wouldn't show up? If you change the randomness of the deal by picking the deals you want, you change the card distribution from expectation. It absolutely would show up. If you are talking about equity redistribution where we just move equity from non-targeted players to targeted players, that would also be detectable if you look for it, but as has been discussed a number of times, it would be massively difficult to implement such a musical-chairs scheme in practice.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:35 PM   #4855
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88
Anyone like to take a bet that eventually , say within 2 years , an RNG will be proven rigged or bypassed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
The last guy who wanted to make a bet in this thread was a slight winner at 5NL with a $100 bankroll, so bets aren't taken all too seriously.

But you've gotten 2 offers if you escrow, so please go for it.
Can I get in on this action? I want the side opposite Jspirit. How much do you want to put up?
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:47 PM   #4856
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
if you know a little about computer science then you should know that nothing is random... its a equation that provide the value from 1-13 and color.
IMO, you (and anyone else who is concerned about this issue) should email the site they play at and ask how the shuffle works in great technical detail.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:48 PM   #4857
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by UncleDeezie View Post
+1

Not to sound like a conspirasist, but how are we to be 100% sure that online poker sites use RNGs and not elaborate programs? This completely eliminates the whole RNG argument.
It seems to me that the first step in figuring out how the sites randomly shuffle cards would be to ask them.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:49 PM   #4858
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Wat?

You just quoted someone who explained why it would be extremely hard to rig an RNG. Perhaps you misunderstood what they said?

Also, how frickin hard is it to figure out the "multi-quote" function in this forum? Use it.
When I click on multi quote nothing happens. go ahead and explain then
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:54 PM   #4859
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
When I click on multi quote nothing happens. go ahead and explain then
You click the icon next to all the posts you want to quote, then click the reply button and they'll all be there for you to reply to.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:56 PM   #4860
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
I am a computer programmer too btw. Let's do a thought experiment just to put our minds at ease. What if, just for the sake of argument, Stars had a perfectly good RNG, but chose to either shuffle multiple decks and pick the one they want at any given moment, or just keep running the RNG until they got a deck favorable to what they want?
The concept of favouring one particular player on the community cards is impossible in the 'static shuffle' method used by PokerStars. The server can't possibly know what players will do after the cards are dealt, so there can't be a deck "favourable" to what they want.

Quote:
I forget does Stars say they shuffle the whole deck ahead of time? If so this would be a little more comforting as it would be kind of hard to reshuffle the deck after the flop and hide that from any programmer who ever saw the system. Hard but maybe not impossible.
The deck is shuffled, set, then dealt.
Quote:
My biggest concern is that with normal operation they reshuffle what's left after the flop, then deal that. It wouldn't seem that hard to just keep reshuffling the deck until you got what you want. This would seem a much more likely way to rig since it would be very complicated to stack the deck from the get-go, as you don't know what bad players are going to do most of the time, and constantly coolering people with KK vs. AA would certainly show up on statistical tracking.
Yes, that would be a concern if it happened. But it doesn't happen.
Quote:
I'd really really really like to be 100% convinced it's not happening (so that I can go back to thinking God just hates me) either by aggregate card distributions or some other argument. I consider myself a reasonable person who can be convinced by sound logic. Josem?
I explained in post #421 of this thread how you could prove that this isn't happening to you: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=421


Here it is again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
[There's a common theory] that the flop, turn and river cards were fiddled to favour particular players. Let me explain a way to make such 'rigging' impossible.

As you might know, there are two possible ways for a computer to shuffle a deck:

a) Static Shuffle - Just like in a live casino, the cards are shuffled, set, and then dealt out.

b) Continuous Shuffle - While the hand is in play, the cards are continuously being shuffled, and then, when the pre-flop (or the flop or turn) action is finishe, the shuffling is stopped, and then the next card is dealt.

If a deck is set, like in a static shuffle, before the hand starts, then it is literally impossible to create an "action flop" (or any other form of rigged shuffle that is based on community cards) since there is no way that a site can possibly predict what action will take place.

So, if you want to play at a site where such rigging is impossible you need to only play at sites which have a static shuffle.

The easiest way to do this is to just email the various sites, and ask them whether they use a continuous or a static shufffle.

Here are the contact details for the five largest sites/networks according to Poker Scout:

PokerStars - support@pokerstars.com
Full Tilt - support@fulltiltpoker.com
iPoker/Playtech - http://www.playtech.com/html/index.php?page=43
PartyPoker - info@partypoker.com
OnGame/bwin - https://home.bwin.com/page.aspx?view=contact

(If someone has an email address for iPoker or OnGame/bwin to use then feel free to post it - I couldn't find one easily)

Here's a draft email that you can send them:

Quote:
Hello,

I'm interested in how the cards are shuffled in poker games at your site.

Do you have:

a) Static Shuffle - Just like in a live casino, the cards are shuffled, set, and then dealt out.

OR

b) Continuous Shuffle - While the hand is in play, the cards are continuously being shuffled, and then, when the pre-flop (or the flop or turn) action is finishe, the shuffling is stopped, and then the next card is dealt.

Could you please let me know?

regards,
xxxxxxxx

Now, obviously you don't trust the sites involved (otherwise this thread wouldn't exist) so the next step is to then contact their regulators.

Here are the details on their regulators that I could find from their respective websites:

PokerStars - www.gov.im/gambling
Full Tilt - http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/
iPoker/Playtech - CDPoker (one of the skins) says they're regulated by Gibraltar, but I couldn't find their listing on http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/gov_dept...net_gaming.htm - still, that's probably the place to start
PartyPoker - http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/gov_dept...net_gaming.htm
OnGame/bwin - http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/gov_dept...net_gaming.htm

I just went to the respective sites home pages and followed the links from there.

Hopefully this will help you get underway to confirming to yourself that online poker is safe and secure.

Feel free to PM me or post here if you have any queries.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:57 PM   #4861
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
you can think it is random.. but the truth is
it is just a value produce from a equation...
No, it isn't.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:59 PM   #4862
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

[\QUOTE]
This is a conspiracy theory popular with a different flavour of rigtard - in this case one who is unaware of the scrutiny that the sites are under from mirrions of poker players who would catch the anomalies generated by such shenanigans in a heartbeat.[/QUOTE]

seems to me you have little if any experience programming, if so you would realize just about anything can be done, certainly rigging a poker game, with software. Your intelligent insults certainly preclude much of a brain for programming.

Last edited by Jspirit88; 06-17-2009 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:03 PM   #4863
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Can I get in on this action? I want the side opposite Jspirit. How much do you want to put up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
When I click on multi quote nothing happens. go ahead and explain then
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
It seems to me that the first step in figuring out how the sites randomly shuffle cards would be to ask them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
You click the icon next to all the posts you want to quote, then click the reply button and they'll all be there for you to reply to.
thank you, it works
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:05 PM   #4864
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
seems to me you have little if any experience programming, if so you would realize just about anything can be done, certainly rigging a poker game, with software. Your intelligent insults certainly preclude much of a brain for programming.
So many riggedologists seem to think literally anything is magically possible with software (without ever being caught or anyone involve leaking the info) that I am annoyed I did not think to add this sooner. Only 3 left to go.


Commandment 1: Thou shalt ask others to prove it false

Commandment 2: Thou shalt state an opinion and declare it a fact

Commandment 3: Thou shalt hurl personal attacks

Commandment 4: Thou shalt assume

Commandment 5: Thou shalt have no time to test thy theories

Commandment 6: Thou shalt support they brethren unconditionally

Commandment 7: Thou shalt believe anything is possible with software
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:35 PM   #4865
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
The concept of favouring one particular player on the community cards is impossible in the 'static shuffle' method used by PokerStars. The server can't possibly know what players will do after the cards are dealt, so there can't be a deck "favourable" to what they want.


The deck is shuffled, set, then dealt.

Yes, that would be a concern if it happened. But it doesn't happen.

I explained in post #421 of this thread how you could prove that this isn't happening to you: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=421


Here it is again:
Seems to me any number of conditions could be programmed. A static deck could be programmed to turn back on and reshuffle till it met a certain players trips or flush ,or a good start hand, etc.. a dynamic deck need not even be turned on. would be a fairly small amount of code comparatively. This type of program could be activated by chip stack, preferred player,etc., and could be used in a way to boost a player just enough to make him a winner but under the statistical radar. This would not be rocket science. Maybe sites have great security, but some percentage of gambling halls have always been dirty and one should not expect any better from on-line gambling.

Players do very predictable things with favorable cards. Thats a no brainer.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:47 PM   #4866
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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under the statistical radar
No such thing.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:48 PM   #4867
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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?
Dude, joke about the guy you were replying to.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:52 PM   #4868
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
The concept of favouring one particular player on the community cards is impossible in the 'static shuffle' method used by PokerStars. The server can't possibly know what players will do after the cards are dealt, so there can't be a deck "favourable" to what they want.


The deck is shuffled, set, then dealt.

Yes, that would be a concern if it happened. But it doesn't happen.

I explained in post #421 of this thread how you could prove that this isn't happening to you: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=421


Here it is again:
static shuffle is like how poker is deal in real life..
but can static shuffle be shuffling repeatly until the person get a good starting hand?
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:11 PM   #4869
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
The concept of favouring one particular player on the community cards is impossible in the 'static shuffle' method used by PokerStars. The server can't possibly know what players will do after the cards are dealt, so there can't be a deck "favourable" to what they want.

The deck is shuffled, set, then dealt.
Right, I agree that as long as we have a static shuffle the kind of riggage I described is impossible. I guess my only fear here would be that the *shuffled deck* object is something of a black box to most of the programmers, and only handled by a few senior/trusted programmers that have been around forever. It would make sense to do this to prevent a rogue programmer from hijacking the code for their own gain.

But the concern would be that the black box shuffled deck is actually hooked up to something that is aware of the table action, and spitting out choice re-shuffles based on the flop action. All of the programmers not working on the actual shuffled deck object could treat it like a statically shuffled deck. When their code asked the shuffled deck object for the turn card, they would never know it was spitting out more dynamic values.

Obviously this is far-fetched. But in the real world for something this monetarily important, like banking software, several third parties would be hired to audit all of the actual code - not just run various tests on the output. Or at least that should be how it's done.

No offense but I have no way of knowing of the Isle of Man gaming supervisory commission is on the up and up and more than the KGC, which we know is full of crap. Given PS standing on the Isle of Man, I would tend to doubt they are that zealous in their regulatory audits. Can Stars point to a full audit of their source code performed by an established, trusted third party entity that has a reputation to uphold and does not receive a significant percentage of their revenue directly from PS?

Anyway the fact that PS claims a statically shuffled deck is a good thing and significantly reduces the chances (which were very low to begin with) of my thought experiment being true imo. I'm just describing the kind of due diligence that a big corporate client would do before they trusted their money or corporate security to some 3rd party web application. As we know from AP/UB, and even stuff like Bernie Madoff, there's a damn good reason for due diligence, even if you think the chance of shenanigans is extremely remote.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:14 PM   #4870
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Whether static or continuous, the shuffle is still random. It doesn't make a lick of difference in the results which one is used.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:46 PM   #4871
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

LOLOLOL at those who think online poker isn't rigged.
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:12 PM   #4872
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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LOLOLOL at those who think the moon isn't made of cheese.
You've presented the same amount of evidence for both.
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Old 06-17-2009, 10:09 PM   #4873
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:05 AM   #4874
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw
This is a conspiracy theory popular with a different flavour of rigtard - in this case one who is unaware of the scrutiny that the sites are under from mirrions of poker players who would catch the anomalies generated by such shenanigans in a heartbeat.
Quote:
seems to me you have little if any experience programming,
On the basis that I say that many millions of poker players keenly checking statistics would notice any anomolies in the deals they were given you conclude I have little if any programming experience?

What has the one to do with the other?

You demonstrate your idiocy at new levels daily.

Quote:
if so you would realize just about anything can be done, certainly rigging a poker game, with software.
Of course a poker game could be rigged by software.

Just not by rigging the RNG and not over a large sample of hands without leaving detectable artifacts in the HH databases.

Quote:
Your intelligent insults certainly preclude much of a brain for programming.
Your unintelligent insults (and the other piffle you spout) certainly preclude the possibility of your having much of a functioning brain at all.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:13 AM   #4875
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Seems to me any number of conditions could be programmed. A static deck could be programmed to turn back on and reshuffle till it met a certain players trips or flush ,or a good start hand, etc.. a dynamic deck need not even be turned on. would be a fairly small amount of code comparatively.
Please provide any evidence you have that this happens.

Traditionally, before people make wild accusations of massive international frauds and scams, and before people accuse others of fraud, theft and other criminal behaviour, it is customary to have evidence to support your accusations.

If you think this is happening, why have you not reported it to the relevant authorities?
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