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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 06-19-2009, 01:50 PM   #5101
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
Custom reports here:http://www.pokertracker.com/repository/

EV analysis here:https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/45...0-14-a-370373/

I can't confirm thier accuracy and I assume there are other tools available but it might help you
Thanks, I'm going to try those out later today.
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:57 PM   #5102
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Way to go K13!
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:09 PM   #5103
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Way to go K13!
Not to sound condescending or anything, but, this! It seems K13 was mostly blowing off steam with his bad beats ITT, and since he stopped doing that, has proved to be a lot more reasonable than I though at first.

K13, I don't know if there's an easy way to bring off one hand versus another reports, but my concern would be that you need a pretty large sample size to do that.

Just as an example, let's say you had 100,000 hands and tried to compare how AA fared against KK. At 1/220 for pocket pairs, you should only even have AA about 500 times (454.5), and it will only come up against KK a handful of times.

Not saying you shouldn't pursue this, just pointing out some of the limitations.
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:31 PM   #5104
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Here's my graph for SNG's from SNGLuck,
is this mean I'm running better than expected?

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Old 06-19-2009, 04:49 PM   #5105
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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1. Q: how much time he spent playing online
A: Around 4-5 hrs a day on average
*I played, for money, on PokerHost, UltimateBet, FullTilt and PokerStars

2. Q: how many thousands he lost online before he found out that it was just his fault
A: Close to $4,000.00 US Dollars in total

3. Q: Did he do something to improve his play online?
A: Not really. I switched to live poker. Tournaments at first, then cash games. I still do both, but mostly cash games

4. Q: Does he win online now? How much?
A: No. I just play freerolls when I'm bored. Haven't played for real money online in over a year and half (I quit my job two years ago. I used to be a casino dealer)

Is that better? I have nothing to hide btw. But I won't give out any of my screen names. One, I can't remember most of them. Two, it wouldn't matter because I had most of them removed from SharkScope a while ago. I wrote letters and e-mails to each of the sites complaining that my privacy was being invaded. Basically, as I already admitted that I was losing, I was tired of players looking up my stats and calling me a fish! True, true story. No lies here guys. Just being honest.

On the other hand though.. playing live poker I have acquired two Orleans poker jackets (and around $3,000.00 after taxes from those two wins). I play NL Hold'em and Omaha mostly. But I can play all the games. I also play a little Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker and Craps sometimes. Sports book, too (mostly college football and boxing). I've been able to cover over $3,500.00 a month in bills and keep my two houses. I rent one out as of two months ago. End of story
Thank you for your response. So, you have been a decent winning live player. Unfortunately, you stopped playing online. If you had become a winning player online, it would add up to "not rigged" side position.
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:55 PM   #5106
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Thank you for your response. So, you have been a decent winning live player. Unfortunately, you stopped playing online. If you had become a winning player online, it would add up to "not rigged" side position.
I live in Las Vegas. Go figure
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:55 PM   #5107
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Thank you for your response. So, you have been a decent winning live player. Unfortunately, you stopped playing online. If you had become a winning player online, it would add up to "not rigged" side position.
Wait....are you just looking for examples of players that are good live as well as online? What exactly is your point?
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:36 PM   #5108
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Another weekend, another running 50% below expectation on my high-equity showdowns set after set after set after set after set after set. ****ing chinese water torture. I realize how stupid I sound. But that still doesn't nullify the fact that this will never stop. Ever.
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:49 PM   #5109
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

so many bad beat online...

is because people are more likly to play more vairty of hands?
Cause i notice that i dont see people go all in with pair 2s but i do see that often online...

and sometimes i even see people go all in off suit 7 2...

which makes online harder to predict.....
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:57 PM   #5110
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

It just seems like the worse the players get the worse I run. Ppl are so bad in my games right now. Summer is always good since a lot of the grinders are dinking around at the WSOP. But I just can't get a break.

I honestly can't remember ever having a winning holiday weekend. And those are always the worst of the worst players.

I'm sure it's just an anomaly. But it's so hard to fight every instinct in your body telling you something is messed up.
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Old 06-19-2009, 06:01 PM   #5111
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I feel like the better the players are, the worse I run. Much worse because it's harder to win it back.
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Old 06-19-2009, 06:11 PM   #5112
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

35 AA's on AP so far, 100% win rate. I almost don't believe it.
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Old 06-19-2009, 06:20 PM   #5113
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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so many bad beat online...

is because people are more likly to play more vairty of hands?
Cause i notice that i dont see people go all in with pair 2s but i do see that often online...

and sometimes i even see people go all in off suit 7 2...

which makes online harder to predict.....

I think that argument could be made. There is also the element of "being embarrassed" if caught in a bluff or bad play during live poker whereas online you are more anonymous.

That said, online players (obviously) multi-table a lot and this cuts down on the range of hands being played. Also, in live poker there are less hands dealt so it takes more patience to just play premium hands thus the range could be larger for that reason.

I'd have to see what the data suggests, but those are just some thoughts to consider for each side of the equation.
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:43 PM   #5114
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

K13 - I think you are starting to see the tremendous power that selective memory has in causing suspicions of riggedness. When you actually accumulate a hand history and evaluate it, it really doesn't take that large a sample to see that you approach the true expectation for your hands, and that you get dealt the expected number of each hand type as well. In the samples I look at, you can select as few as a half a million random hands and not really find any significant deviations in there worth noting, no matter how you slice and dice it. But with just five hundred hands, you could easily run total robusto or total busto even playing perfectly. With 134 million possible 7-card holdem hands it can take a while for the long run to catch up with you.

I'm glad you're on the right track.
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:55 PM   #5115
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I'm glad you're on the right track.
Amen to that.

Every time a rigtard sees the light an angel gets h(er/is) wings!
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:43 AM   #5116
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Then in the hand, you put in an outlandish re-raise for well over 1/2 your stack with no thought about what the pot will be on the flop in relation to the amount you've left behind. Based on pot odds, it was pretty much a mandatory call for the villain.

Really, after seeing this tragedy, I'd be more inclined to consider it as proof that the sites don't protect "fish" since you still lost the hand. Also, I suspect the villain may have taken this line against you based on his observations of your previous play.

Finally, the site got paid $3 regardless of who won. They probably don't care whether or not you go broke 'cause you just deposit again, amirite?
???????????????????????????????????????????

You better be joking because I don't see how villain could have possibly played it worse.

POT ODDS TO CALL?
What fkn planet do you live on?
And if villain is working for the site, then they made $200 if he wins.
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:00 AM   #5117
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Yay just had my first winning set on the 6th try. +$15. Every draw gets there against, I lose every race, my draws never get there. etc. etc. Same story 8 weekends in a row now. One set was one of the best sets I've ever had to start. Doubled up on like 3/4 of my tables, alive and healthy on all. Then as soon as the equity gets high, switch gets flipped, can't win a thing to save my life.

Not rigged, I know. But might as well be because this will never end.
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Old 06-20-2009, 02:11 AM   #5118
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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???????????????????????????????????????????

You better be joking because I don't see how villain could have possibly played it worse.

POT ODDS TO CALL?
What fkn planet do you live on?
And if villain is working for the site, then they made $200 if he wins.
You know it's pretty easy to look up the overall results of the villain in that hand. Post or PM me his screen name, I'll be happy to look it up and we can see just how much money he's making working for the sites.

He's obviously a donk based on the preflop call. After calling off $120 preflop it doesn't surprise me much that he called off $80 more. Pretty positive your opponent was just a big time loser who got lucky on you. He was 1.1 % to win the hand, and he did. We see 98 to 1 shots happen in life often enough. It doesn't mean rigged.
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Old 06-20-2009, 04:05 AM   #5119
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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We see 98 to 1 shots happen in life often enough. It doesn't mean rigged.
In life and in poker.

Maybe a couple of times an hour on a fast table.
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Old 06-20-2009, 04:44 AM   #5120
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

98 to 1 would be what, runner runner perfect?
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Old 06-20-2009, 06:16 AM   #5121
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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98 to 1 would be what, runner runner perfect?
yeah running trips, three eights left in the deck and he had to hit two of them... actually 1.1% would be more like 90 to 1 or something close depending on rounding. It won't happen often mainly because it's incredibly rare for somebody to be that far ahead in an all in situation. Normally there's a better chance of a suckout or the villian is just plain drawing dead.

Nonetheless, for every 90-100 times it does happen, the underdog is going to win one.
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:27 AM   #5122
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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98 to 1 would be what, runner runner perfect?

No, runner runner perfect is 998 to 1. That's when only two exact cards in the deck can make the hand if you hit them both on the turn and river, such as for straight flush or quads.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:35 AM   #5123
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

The single hand that scooper showed as proof of rigging was not 989 to 1. It was not 98-1.

AcKs vs Ad 8d on the Kh7dQh board


Gives AK a 93.74% chance to win

Gives Ad8d a 4.75% chance to win

and there is 1.52% chance to tie


so it is more like 19-1 or so.


The hand I posted from the WPT was more like 200-1. Thus, live poker on TV is about 10 times more rigged then online poker. Also, since about 5,000 times the amount was at stake on the WPT this now makes live poker 50,000 times more rigged then online.

Riggedology math. Learn it, live it, love it.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:42 AM   #5124
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
K13 - I think you are starting to see the tremendous power that selective memory has in causing suspicions of riggedness. When you actually accumulate a hand history and evaluate it, it really doesn't take that large a sample to see that you approach the true expectation for your hands, and that you get dealt the expected number of each hand type as well. In the samples I look at, you can select as few as a half a million random hands and not really find any significant deviations in there worth noting, no matter how you slice and dice it. But with just five hundred hands, you could easily run total robusto or total busto even playing perfectly. With 134 million possible 7-card holdem hands it can take a while for the long run to catch up with you.

I'm glad you're on the right track.
Hand frequencies were never really in doubt. That would be too easy for anyone to spot. There's too many variables to prove anything one way or another. I would need more stats and more situations.

I'll just keep playing till I lose.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:43 AM   #5125
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

ah never saw the backdoor flushdraw.... we're even less rigged now lol
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