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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:55 PM   #4801
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
What about that little hesitation before the all in river bad beat? The longer the hesitation the more sure the bad beat. lol
is this "make up random **** and post it on the internet" month?
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:32 PM   #4802
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Anyone like to take a bet that eventually , say within 2 years , an RNG will be proven rigged or bypassed?
People have been suggesting that bet for several years already, and likely will every year till the end of time. End of world proclamations - that's new and exciting.

Not sure what your point really is. You really think you are the first with your beliefs or something? People have been saying it is rigged for many years while never proving it, and will continue to do just that despite any evidence of the contrary.

Best we can hope for at this point are new and amusing twists on how and why it is rigged like mafia, hackers, government mind control, entropy effect, lizard people, the masons etc.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:56 PM   #4803
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Where do you get off thinking a $1000 loss of quads vs a straight flush competes with these guys 70/30 losses in $3 tournaments?

Sheesh, the nerve of some people.


money value is not the same for everyone...
and no it was not $3 tourny... read carefully again...

it was 50+5 tourny.. popular in FTP...
1st place pays 20k something and i was at final 2 table...
and i got paid around $600
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:59 PM   #4804
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
money value is not the same for everyone...
and no it was not $3 tourny... read carefully again...

it was 50+5 tourny.. popular in FTP...
1st place pays 20k something and i was at final 2 table...
and i got paid around $600
Either way your "most memorable beat" was a coin flip.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:07 PM   #4805
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
money value is not the same for everyone...
and no it was not $3 tourny... read carefully again...

it was 50+5 tourny.. popular in FTP...
1st place pays 20k something and i was at final 2 table...
and i got paid around $600
The skill of careful reading is a special one. Your post for instance, if you read carefully, would be a much better fit in the bad beats forum since it had nothing to do with this forum or topic at all.

Frankly, I did not read your post at first because it is fairly unreadable, and it does in a different sense require careful reading to process as a result. I chose to pass.

Anyway, sorry about your standard hand loss that happens tens of thousands of times a day to players. I hope you recover.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:36 PM   #4806
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Anyone like to take a bet that eventually , say within 2 years , an RNG will be proven rigged or bypassed?
I'd be happy to bet that the RNG at PokerStars is not rigged. I'd obviously require escrow.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:28 AM   #4807
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Jspirit88 View Post
Anyone like to take a bet that eventually , say within 2 years , an RNG will be proven rigged or bypassed?
If you mean at one of the top 4 sites and are prepared to put up the money (with an agreed trusted party) up front then, yes, I'll give you 10-1 that the RNG is not proven rigged or bypassed.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:36 AM   #4808
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I would go with rigged only since bypassed would fall under the rigged category and then can't later be used against you imo.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:50 AM   #4809
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Obviously I have not read all 316 pages of this thread, so sorry if this has been brought up before...

But to me, on Pokerstars, it seems as if the person who makes the final raise preflop in limit hold'em is more likely to complete their hand postflop. For instance, say I raise pf with AJs and someone three bets me with ATo, then they have a better chance than normal of hitting their three outer 10. I've played 10's of thousands of hands on PS, so I'm not just ranting about some bad beat story...but IMO, it seems PS is somehow rewarding aggression with increased odds.

Personal story: 42s used to be my favorite hand. I can't tell you how many times I've capped pf with it, been up against monsters, then hit some bs backdoor draw or two pair for a huge pot. Even though I was happy, it seemed very strange.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:00 AM   #4810
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I started to type out a logical response to this, then I realized I'm probably wasting my time. Josem, it's all yours.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:03 AM   #4811
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I don't think the RNG's are "rigged" in a manner to maliciously take your money or "screw you" I just think they are extremely "flawed.... " (As far as FTP, AP/UB go)
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:21 AM   #4812
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
I started to type out a logical response to this, then I realized I'm probably wasting my time. Josem, it's all yours.
I assume you're responding to my post. I'm slightly new here, so maybe a helpful member could direct me to the more important and informative posts in this thread. I don't care if they're 20 paragraphs long...I'd like a full understanding of this whole debate. (I don't even know what "RNG" means.)
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:22 AM   #4813
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleDeezie View Post
Personal story: 42s used to be my favorite hand. I can't tell you how many times I've capped pf with it, been up against monsters, then hit some bs backdoor draw or two pair for a huge pot. Even though I was happy, it seemed very strange.
Why is it strange? 42s beats 2 big overcards (like AK) about 38%, and beats a big overpair about 19% (like KK). Those are frequent enough that you will remember them and forget the majority of the times when you lose.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:28 AM   #4814
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

^^Bad example/explanation for me. My point was that my winrate for 42s seemed higher than normal due to the fact that I would cap/three bet it preflop. But I would need my older stats to back that up.

Just forget I mentioned it...
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:09 AM   #4815
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

A couple of really strange and consistent themes in this thread are the following:

- People citing super users and common acts of fraud as a means of proving intricate software rigging when they are completely unrelated.

- People citing patterns that they somehow have the powers to recognize and yet they never capitalize on their secret information to make millions.

I guess in an odd way it is similar to the millions of people who think they have found a new roulette system that works, all variations of past systems that have helped build casinos.

Strange mentality in a way.
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:39 PM   #4816
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleDeezie View Post
I assume you're responding to my post. I'm slightly new here, so maybe a helpful member could direct me to the more important and informative posts in this thread. I don't care if they're 20 paragraphs long...I'd like a full understanding of this whole debate. (I don't even know what "RNG" means.)
RNG means 'Random Number Generator'.

These things are, on modern poker sites, hardware devices that are to all intents and purposes completely random.

There are certain people, commonly refered to as 'rigtards' who cannot seem to understand that 'rigging' a hardware RNG would be a technical feat of a considerably greater order of magnitude than, for example, travelling to a distant star.

These people are, for the most part idiots, who continue to post irrelevant stories of the bad beats they have suffered.

It's quite understandable that someone might think they see some odd pattern in hands they've played and quite reasonable for them to mention it. However, these small scale statistical anomalies are all part of what can be reasonably expected in an industry that generates many billions of hands per year.

If you have had something happen that is a one in a million shot just be aware that it's most probable that a couple of hundred others have seen similarly unlikely things happen today.

And someone will see a one in a billion shot happen around once a week.

(Based on an estimate of ~200m hands dealt per day)
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:41 PM   #4817
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
I guess in an odd way it is similar to the millions of people who think they have found a new roulette system that works, all variations of past systems that have helped build casinos.
I have a system that is guaranteed to minimise your losses at roulette.

It involves never playing roulette.

I have a similar one, mutatis mutandis, for blackjack.
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:43 PM   #4818
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

15 out of 15 times.

Money goes all in PF.

My aces got cracked every time.

What the ****

Not rigged but how unlucky can i be
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:55 PM   #4819
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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15 out of 15 times.

Money goes all in PF.

My aces got cracked every time.

What the ****

Not rigged but how unlucky can i be
This is another odd trend that pops up now and then. Outright impossible lies. Sadly, it is rarely a "level."

The interesting thing is that not a single riggedologist would dispute this claim from the random, new poster even though the odds of his 15 aces getting cracked all in preflop in a row is I would guess about 1 in a quadrillion or so, or something like being the single person chosen at random on the planet and then having to guess a number between 1 and a million after that selection.

Will guys like this ever show actual hands as proof? Of course not because they simply do not exist yet they will be believed by those who want to believe in what they are saying, all the while implying others are naive for not believing what this random guy said could happen.

People lie all the time, just like this guy. Real life tends to be simple.

Now was this guy a level? Probably not, all of his posts seem to be in the same "Haiku for Dummies" style, so it is probably just a whiny vent rant. I would be impressed if he showed 5 AA hands losing all in within a short period of time (since his claim was 15 in a row). He probably lost 2 in one day's time or something.


Here, learn to be a "shill" instead and you can benefit from better AA runs. Note these two hands in a row (naturally one guy said it was rigged after, because how my opponents played had nothing to do with the overinflated pot sizes at all). I did have to use my shill powers to river the guy on the first one, fortunately for me shill rigging > bad beat rigging.

PokerStars Game #29437526056: Tournament #172289548, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/06/16 14:42:53 ET
Table '172289548 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: bunest (1470 in chips)
Seat 2: bobby2aces (2870 in chips)
Seat 3: bigchip02 (1510 in chips)
Seat 4: kampana (1410 in chips)
Seat 5: tommypeters (1430 in chips)
Seat 6: HP Hockstein (1760 in chips)
Seat 7: BenFang (140 in chips)
Seat 8: Monteroy (1440 in chips)
Seat 9: thing93001 (1470 in chips)
kampana: posts small blind 15
tommypeters: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Ah As]
HP Hockstein: folds
BenFang: folds
Monteroy: raises 60 to 90
thing93001: folds
bunest: folds
bobby2aces: calls 90
bigchip02: raises 1420 to 1510 and is all-in
kampana: folds
tommypeters: folds
Monteroy: calls 1350 and is all-in
bobby2aces: folds
Uncalled bet (70) returned to bigchip02
*** FLOP *** [2d 3d Qh]
*** TURN *** [2d 3d Qh] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [2d 3d Qh Jd] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monteroy: shows [Ah As] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
bigchip02: shows [Qs Js] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
Monteroy collected 3015 from pot

PokerStars Game #29437557359: Tournament #172289548, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/06/16 14:43:40 ET
Table '172289548 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: bunest (1470 in chips)
Seat 2: bobby2aces (2780 in chips)
Seat 3: bigchip02 (70 in chips)
Seat 4: kampana (1395 in chips)
Seat 5: tommypeters (1400 in chips)
Seat 6: HP Hockstein (1760 in chips)
Seat 7: BenFang (140 in chips)
Seat 8: Monteroy (3015 in chips)
Seat 9: thing93001 (1470 in chips)
tommypeters: posts small blind 15
HP Hockstein: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [As Ad]
BenFang: raises 110 to 140 and is all-in
Monteroy: calls 140
thing93001: folds
bunest: folds
bobby2aces: folds
bigchip02: folds
kampana: folds
tommypeters: folds
HP Hockstein: calls 110
*** FLOP *** [9c Ah Qd]
HP Hockstein: bets 30
Monteroy: raises 360 to 390
HP Hockstein: calls 360
*** TURN *** [9c Ah Qd] [6h]
HP Hockstein: bets 240
Monteroy: raises 2245 to 2485 and is all-in
HP Hockstein: calls 990 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1255) returned to Monteroy
*** RIVER *** [9c Ah Qd 6h] [8s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HP Hockstein: shows [Ac 6c] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
Monteroy: shows [As Ad] (three of a kind, Aces)
Monteroy collected 3240 from side pot
BenFang: shows [Jc Jd] (a pair of Jacks)
Monteroy collected 435 from main pot
bigchip02 said, "thats really messed up nice hand"
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:06 PM   #4820
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by sameagain View Post
15 out of 15 times.

Money goes all in PF.

My aces got cracked every time.

What the ****

Not rigged but how unlucky can i be
I know how inaccurate your statement is. If you went all-in preflop with AA 15 times in a row against a single opponent (you didn't specify) then the chance to lose them all is about 31 billion to 1 assuming an average equity of 80%. There haven't been 31 billion AA hands all-in preflop in the history of online poker. Even if we assume some of them were multi-way all-ins and average equity was 70%, it still didn't happen in this universe.

Last edited by spadebidder; 06-17-2009 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:08 PM   #4821
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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god damn i hate my parents sometimes they tell me u have 2 weeks to get a job then they will never let me use one of the vehicles to go look for work so now its down to 5 days left til my deadline and if i dont have a job by then they are kicking me out...tell me does that make any sense at all NO! i think they want me to end up dead in a ditch somewhere i mean **** wat the hell is their problem? they are always helping my sisters but no not me im too much of a freak they dont want to claim that im their son. and then its all about the grandkids which i love them to death most of the time but when they cant take me to the hospital cuz the babies are sleepin wat is more ****in important the fact that blood is pouring out of my face or the babies are sleeping well i guess this is it for a long time cuz im goin to be a homeless motha ****er sleepin at the ****in park or something idk cuz my friends always want to help but they can only do so much b4 it makes me feel like **** so im not askin any of my friends if i can go live with them cuz its just not right

KING NICHE?


Edit: actually I feel kind of bad for this kid:

well idk wat to do anymore if i stay here in kansas i will never achieve the change i want but if i leave im leaving everything and everyone behind i know and love. i dont have a girlfriend i have to worry about leaving behind. But there are some really good friends and my paintball team my family especially my nephew Joey i love him to pieces i cant picture life without him but maybe leaving and not bein in his life is better for him so im not bein a bad influence on him i would hate for him to grow older and be a **** up like his uncle thats the last thing i want for him. and im feel like im losing everything i ever cared about i read things and they make me think.....Am i being played? ex-girlfriends are stirring up trouble for me too all this goes into so much stress i just feel like im almost to that point where i break idk wat will happen when i break only wat to find out is to wait and see



Doesn't seem like a bad dude. If you play him again tell him to get the **** out of the midwest, or at least move to a city. Quenemo, Kansas no place for an atheist emo kid. Tell him you know it's scary but just do it and within a year he'll shudder to think about what would have happened if he didn't do it.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:26 PM   #4822
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
RNG means 'Random Number Generator'.

These things are, on modern poker sites, hardware devices that are to all intents and purposes completely random.

There are certain people, commonly refered to as 'rigtards' who cannot seem to understand that 'rigging' a hardware RNG would be a technical feat of a considerably greater order of magnitude than, for example, travelling to a distant star.

These people are, for the most part idiots, who continue to post irrelevant stories of the bad beats they have suffered.

It's quite understandable that someone might think they see some odd pattern in hands they've played and quite reasonable for them to mention it. However, these small scale statistical anomalies are all part of what can be reasonably expected in an industry that generates many billions of hands per year.

If you have had something happen that is a one in a million shot just be aware that it's most probable that a couple of hundred others have seen similarly unlikely things happen today.

And someone will see a one in a billion shot happen around once a week.

(Based on an estimate of ~200m hands dealt per day)


if you know a little about computer science then you should know that nothing is random... its a equation that provide the value from 1-13 and color.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:31 PM   #4823
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
if you know a little about computer science then you should know that nothing is random... its a equation that provide the value from 1-13 and color.
If you know a little about life then you know nothing is random.

However, the RNG devices poker sites use are a hell of a lot more random then any live dealer shuffling the cards.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:39 PM   #4824
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
if you know a little about computer science then you should know that nothing is random... its a equation that provide the value from 1-13 and color.
No, it isn't. RNG knows nothing about ranks and suits. You need to know a little more about computer science. And a hardware RNG is as random as human understanding of the concept allows us to produce. It's so random that the most powerful computer on earth could never predict a pattern from it. That's pretty much the definition of the word for any practical purpose.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:41 PM   #4825
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by sameagain View Post
15 out of 15 times.

Money goes all in PF.

My aces got cracked every time.

What the ****

Not rigged but how unlucky can i be
We have an opportunity here, a new poster who seems from his post to have an open mind.

Others have called you a liar, I won't do that. But I do suspect you are mistaken. Please be the first to actually post the handhistories showing what you've stated. Further, if upon looking at them, you realise you were mistaken, I will be the first not to mock you but to commend you for showing how unreliable our memories are in seeing these patterns and believing things to be different than they are.
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