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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:41 PM   #4826
solucky
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
RNG means 'Random Number Generator'.

These things are, on modern poker sites, hardware devices that are to all intents and purposes completely random.

There are certain people, commonly refered to as 'rigtards' who cannot seem to understand that 'rigging' a hardware RNG would be a technical feat of a considerably greater order of magnitude than, for example, travelling to a distant star.

These people are, for the most part idiots, who continue to post irrelevant stories of the bad beats they have suffered.

It's quite understandable that someone might think they see some odd pattern in hands they've played and quite reasonable for them to mention it. However, these small scale statistical anomalies are all part of what can be reasonably expected in an industry that generates many billions of hands per year.

If you have had something happen that is a one in a million shot just be aware that it's most probable that a couple of hundred others have seen similarly unlikely things happen today.

And someone will see a one in a billion shot happen around once a week.

(Based on an estimate of ~200m hands dealt per day)
Rigged poker means not rigg the " RNG ", its easy possible to run programmed games instead random games.

The 2 main reasons:

Bad play rewarded...bad players go broke slower..increasing the RAKE...bigger profit for the site.

or from employees
increasing winnings from a group of players...employees participate
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:45 PM   #4827
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by solucky View Post
Rigged poker means not rigg the " RNG ", its easy possible to run programmed games instead random games.
That's true. And it's completely impossible to do so in a way that would go undetected by statistical analysis.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:53 PM   #4828
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
if you know a little about computer science then you should know that nothing is random...
That's why there were caveats in what I said: "hardware devices that are to all intents and purposes completely random

Quote:
its a equation that provide the value from 1-13 and color.
100% wrong.

It isn't an equation, it's a piece of hardware.

It doesn't (directly) provide those values. The programmers derive those values from the random output.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:03 PM   #4829
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by solucky View Post
Rigged poker means not rigg the " RNG ", its easy possible to run programmed games instead random games.

The 2 main reasons:

Bad play rewarded...bad players go broke slower..increasing the RAKE...bigger profit for the site.

or from employees
increasing winnings from a group of players...employees participate
+1

Not to sound like a conspirasist, but how are we to be 100% sure that online poker sites use RNGs and not elaborate programs? This completely eliminates the whole RNG argument.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:19 PM   #4830
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by UncleDeezie View Post
Not to sound like a conspirasist, but how are we to be 100% sure that online poker sites use RNGs and not elaborate programs? This completely eliminates the whole RNG argument.
We (if of a rigtard mentality) might consider that a possibility.

Then we don our tinfoil hats and the difficulties of so doing without detection by a zillion players becomes apparant and we get on with playing poker.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:23 PM   #4831
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by solucky View Post
Rigged poker means not rigg the " RNG ", its easy possible to run programmed games instead random games.
Except that a lot of rigtards keep spouting "the RNG is rigged" and it was this particular flavour of idiot to whom I was alluding.

Quote:
Bad play rewarded...bad players go broke slower..increasing the RAKE...bigger profit for the site.

or from employees
increasing winnings from a group of players...employees participate
This is a conspiracy theory popular with a different flavour of rigtard - in this case one who is unaware of the scrutiny that the sites are under from mirrions of poker players who would catch the anomalies generated by such shenanigans in a heartbeat.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:24 PM   #4832
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

its not rigged
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:28 PM   #4833
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
No, it isn't. RNG knows nothing about ranks and suits. You need to know a little more about computer science. And a hardware RNG is as random as human understanding of the concept allows us to produce. It's so random that the most powerful computer on earth could never predict a pattern from it. That's pretty much the definition of the word for any practical purpose.
you can think it is random.. but the truth is
it is just a value produce from a equation...
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:34 PM   #4834
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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you can think it is random.. but the truth is
it is just a value produce from a equation...
You may think you are not an idiot.

But the truth is, you are.

And you are demonstrating the fact by insisting that poker sites are using software RNG's when it has long been established that they used hardware ones.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:49 PM   #4835
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Folks, let me shed a bit of light on how RNG's work. I'm a programmer, and I built a HE simulator for fun a couple years back.

Posters are correct when they say that computers don't have enough imagination to generate a random number out of thin air. But what computers do very well is take a "starting number" (called a seed) and plug that number into a complicated series of equations in order to generate a series of random numbers. These equations were written by programmers or phycisists or other lab coat type people, and they are complicated and interesting enough to generate a series of (thousands of) numbers which seem to be completely random (or close enough to be deemed random).

The real magic is in the seed. If you generate random numbers using the same seed over and over again, you will end up generating the same sequence of random numbers. This is a challenge to programmers because how do you come up with a new seed every time you want to create a series of numbers? You can't just say "seed = 3" because it will always be 3...

The geniuses who write these poker clients get around this problem by getting their seeds based on user interaction. For example, the seed might be the time (in milliseconds) when the player clicks the Call button, thus prompting another card to be dealt. This kind of code would be pretty hard to manipulate through user action. It's just too specific and the game happens too quickly.

I'm sure foul play happens by superusers and what-not (see UltimateBet Scandal sticky), but I don't think the reputable sites have any issues with their RNGs. If sites are abused, it is done by unscrupulous people, not by game-play glitches.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:51 PM   #4836
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
You may think you are not an idiot.

But the truth is, you are.

And you are demonstrating the fact by insisting that poker sites are using software RNG's when it has long been established that they used hardware ones.


"A random number generator (often abbreviated as RNG) is a computational or physical device designed to generate a sequence of numbers or symbols that lack any pattern, i.e. appear random. Hardware-based systems for random number generation are widely used, but often fall short of this goal, though they may meet some of the statistical tests for randomness intended to ensure that they do not have any easily discernible patterns."



like i said.. you might think its random but its actually not...
There are people out there calculation lottery numbers for living... because its not random.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:06 PM   #4837
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Yeah, and those people win the lottery over and over again, right? There are people out there with theories, that's all. There are also people at the Baccarat tables writing down all the cards that have come up for the past two hours.

Even the people who wrote the RNG's wouldn't be able to benefit from their knowledge because of the user interaction factor.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:14 PM   #4838
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Burnin&Lootin View Post
Yeah, and those people win the lottery over and over again, right? There are people out there with theories, that's all. There are also people at the Baccarat tables writing down all the cards that have come up for the past two hours.

Even the people who wrote the RNG's wouldn't be able to benefit from their knowledge because of the user interaction factor.

I am giving an example of nothing is random...
and no those people who sell lottery numbers does not play..
Personally i dont know anybody in the US does that but I do know people in china and TW that do it for a living...

also i am not saying its easy to figure the pattern just saying its not random
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:18 PM   #4839
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnin&Lootin View Post
Folks, let me shed a bit of light on how RNG's work. I'm a programmer, and I built a HE simulator for fun a couple years back.

Posters are correct when they say that computers don't have enough imagination to generate a random number out of thin air. But what computers do very well is take a "starting number" (called a seed) and plug that number into a complicated series of equations in order to generate a series of random numbers. These equations were written by programmers or phycisists or other lab coat type people, and they are complicated and interesting enough to generate a series of (thousands of) numbers which seem to be completely random (or close enough to be deemed random).

The real magic is in the seed. If you generate random numbers using the same seed over and over again, you will end up generating the same sequence of random numbers. This is a challenge to programmers because how do you come up with a new seed every time you want to create a series of numbers? You can't just say "seed = 3" because it will always be 3...

The geniuses who write these poker clients get around this problem by getting their seeds based on user interaction. For example, the seed might be the time (in milliseconds) when the player clicks the Call button, thus prompting another card to be dealt. This kind of code would be pretty hard to manipulate through user action. It's just too specific and the game happens too quickly.

I'm sure foul play happens by superusers and what-not (see UltimateBet Scandal sticky), but I don't think the reputable sites have any issues with their RNGs. If sites are abused, it is done by unscrupulous people, not by game-play glitches.


so you are saying the value is generated right before a card is shown?
for example, flop cards are generate right before showing the flop card or flop cards are generate when players recieved their cards?
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:40 PM   #4840
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
I am giving an example of nothing is random...
and no those people who sell lottery numbers does not play..
Personally i dont know anybody in the US does that but I do know people in china and TW that do it for a living...

also i am not saying its easy to figure the pattern just saying its not random
You lost all credibility when you thought a coin flip was an indication the RNG was rigged.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:48 PM   #4841
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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You lost all credibility when you thought a coin flip was an indication the RNG was rigged.

"The geniuses who write these poker clients get around this problem by getting their seeds based on user interaction. For example, the seed might be the time (in milliseconds) when the player clicks the Call button, thus prompting another card to be dealt. This kind of code would be pretty hard to manipulate through user action. It's just too specific and the game happens too quickly."


wutever u say
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:53 PM   #4842
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
"The geniuses who write these poker clients get around this problem by getting their seeds based on user interaction. For example, the seed might be the time (in milliseconds) when the player clicks the Call button, thus prompting another card to be dealt. This kind of code would be pretty hard to manipulate through user action. It's just too specific and the game happens too quickly."


wutever u say
Wat?

You just quoted someone who explained why it would be extremely hard to rig an RNG. Perhaps you misunderstood what they said?

Also, how frickin hard is it to figure out the "multi-quote" function in this forum? Use it.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:04 PM   #4843
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
"The geniuses who write these poker clients get around this problem by getting their seeds based on user interaction. For example, the seed might be the time (in milliseconds) when the player clicks the Call button, thus prompting another card to be dealt. This kind of code would be pretty hard to manipulate through user action. It's just too specific and the game happens too quickly."
Uh, do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Firstly, there is no 'seed' for any online Poker RNG that I am aware of, definitely not on PokerStars.

Secondly, some of the input comes from player mouse movements, but it is taken from the site as a whole, not the specific table where a deck is being shuffled.

Thirdly, most sites use a static shuffle, i.e the deck is preset before any cards are dealt, so the length of time it takes you to click call cannot affect anything - the next card from the top of the deck will be dealt regardless.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:10 PM   #4844
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnin&Lootin View Post
Folks, let me shed a bit of light on how RNG's work. I'm a programmer, and I built a HE simulator for fun a couple years back.

Posters are correct when they say that computers don't have enough imagination to generate a random number out of thin air. But what computers do very well is take a "starting number" (called a seed) and plug that number into a complicated series of equations in order to generate a series of random numbers. These equations were written by programmers or phycisists or other lab coat type people, and they are complicated and interesting enough to generate a series of (thousands of) numbers which seem to be completely random (or close enough to be deemed random).
Sorry, but you are wrong, or at least using the wrong terminology.

There is no seed for a random number generator on any competent poker site. They are not grabbing psuedo-random numbers from a list in the way a crappy old software RNG from the 1990s would do.

Poker Sites use Hardware RNGs which are purely random. As an example you could create one based on the radioactive decay of an isotope (this has been done and you can easily build one in the comfort of your own home if you like).

An easier way to do it is to use the Intel Hardware RNG which as far as I know uses thermal noise across a pair of oscillators as a random number.

For more info see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardwar...mber_generator

or the Intel website.

If you meant that this number, which is NOT NOT NOT a *seed* is combined with user input and then fed through 'complicated equations', (some sort of hash table I guess), then yes, you are about right.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:11 PM   #4845
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Wat?

You just quoted someone who explained why it would be extremely hard to rig an RNG. Perhaps you misunderstood what they said?

Also, how frickin hard is it to figure out the "multi-quote" function in this forum? Use it.
lol.. ppl like you like to talk trash to random ppl to make you feel good?
Your mom must be proud of you.. acting tuff online...

if you got nothing good to say then dont...
Well you didnt prove something... you prove that you an *******..
congraduation
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:27 PM   #4846
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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lol.. ppl like you like to talk trash to random ppl to make you feel good?
Your mom must be proud of you.. acting tuff online...

if you got nothing good to say then dont...
Well you didnt prove something... you prove that you an *******..
congraduation
I'm not allowed to point it out when you are wrong? I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but seriously, you are out of your element here. *Cue picture of Donny*
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:32 PM   #4847
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnin&Lootin View Post
Folks, let me shed a bit of light on how RNG's work. I'm a programmer, and I built a HE simulator for fun a couple years back.

Posters are correct when they say that computers don't have enough imagination to generate a random number out of thin air. But what computers do very well is take a "starting number" (called a seed) and plug that number into a complicated series of equations in order to generate a series of random numbers. These equations were written by programmers or phycisists or other lab coat type people, and they are complicated and interesting enough to generate a series of (thousands of) numbers which seem to be completely random (or close enough to be deemed random).

The real magic is in the seed. If you generate random numbers using the same seed over and over again, you will end up generating the same sequence of random numbers. This is a challenge to programmers because how do you come up with a new seed every time you want to create a series of numbers? You can't just say "seed = 3" because it will always be 3...

The geniuses who write these poker clients get around this problem by getting their seeds based on user interaction. For example, the seed might be the time (in milliseconds) when the player clicks the Call button, thus prompting another card to be dealt. This kind of code would be pretty hard to manipulate through user action. It's just too specific and the game happens too quickly.

I'm sure foul play happens by superusers and what-not (see UltimateBet Scandal sticky), but I don't think the reputable sites have any issues with their RNGs. If sites are abused, it is done by unscrupulous people, not by game-play glitches.
Except for the last paragraph, this post is almost entirely wrong, and is about software psuedo-random number generators. Those haven't been used by poker sites in probably 10 years.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:32 PM   #4848
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by panzilla123 View Post
lol.. ppl like you like to talk trash to random ppl to make you feel good?
Your mom must be proud of you.. acting tuff online...

if you got nothing good to say then dont...
Well you didnt prove something... you prove that you an *******..
congraduation
Not sure where your horribly spelt/punctuated hatred is coming from, but he was pointing out that your post made no sense. It would be cool if you explained it rather than going off on him. I was confused by your post as well.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:42 PM   #4849
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
Not sure where your horribly spelt/punctuated hatred is coming from, but he was pointing out that your post made no sense. It would be cool if you explained it rather than going off on him. I was confused by your post as well.
I thought "congraduation" was kind of amusing, even if it was unintentional. I may have to use it sometime.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:10 PM   #4850
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnin&Lootin View Post
The geniuses who write these poker clients get around this problem by getting their seeds based on user interaction. For example, the seed might be the time (in milliseconds) when the player clicks the Call button, thus prompting another card to be dealt. This kind of code would be pretty hard to manipulate through user action. It's just too specific and the game happens too quickly.

I'm sure foul play happens by superusers and what-not (see UltimateBet Scandal sticky), but I don't think the reputable sites have any issues with their RNGs. If sites are abused, it is done by unscrupulous people, not by game-play glitches.
I am a computer programmer too btw. Let's do a thought experiment just to put our minds at ease. What if, just for the sake of argument, Stars had a perfectly good RNG, but chose to either shuffle multiple decks and pick the one they want at any given moment, or just keep running the RNG until they got a deck favorable to what they want?

I forget does Stars say they shuffle the whole deck ahead of time? If so this would be a little more comforting as it would be kind of hard to reshuffle the deck after the flop and hide that from any programmer who ever saw the system. Hard but maybe not impossible.

My biggest concern is that with normal operation they reshuffle what's left after the flop, then deal that. It wouldn't seem that hard to just keep reshuffling the deck until you got what you want. This would seem a much more likely way to rig since it would be very complicated to stack the deck from the get-go, as you don't know what bad players are going to do most of the time, and constantly coolering people with KK vs. AA would certainly show up on statistical tracking.

So how would they decide who to favor in the rigging? Well let's say, just for the sake of argument again, they would like to see people playing > 10 tables run bad, Europeans run good, new players run good, people who just came back from a long hiatus run good, people who have recently won a lot run bad, etc. etc. etc. PS could assign a score, say from -10 to +10 to each player, based on these factors. A brand new European one-tabler would have something like the highest score. 12-tabling US veteran Nit would get a pretty low score.

So it's not like the Euros would win all the time. But they could slant the bias just enough that they really have say 70% EV on a 60% EV flop allin. That would be enough to help foster the weaker players and keep them involved, while presumably robbing some from the big winners w/o actually killing them.

In theory, this kind of riggage would never show up on an aggregate card distribution layout would it? I dunno maybe suckouts favor certain cards, and new/bad players would need to suckout more often. But that could be offset when the good player doesn't suckout.


Now having said all that. Honestly I don't believe it would be possible to program a riggage system this complicated and hide it from most of the programmers. So pretty much all the main programmers at PS would have to be in on it. And you'd think someone would rat somewhere along the line. But man, it wouldn't totally blow my mind if some big scandal came out that PS was favoring certain players in their all ins. I can think of about 50 poker buddies that would get an I TOLD YOU SOMETHING WAS GOING ON email.

I'd really really really like to be 100% convinced it's not happening (so that I can go back to thinking God just hates me) either by aggregate card distributions or some other argument. I consider myself a reasonable person who can be convinced by sound logic. Josem?
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