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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-29-2013, 08:07 AM   #476
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Isn't sports betting (with or without a bookie) illegal?
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Originally Posted by andrewga View Post
That is why it hasn't gone to court.
So we have two or three people here in this forum trying to settle an illlegal issue? Okay.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:07 AM   #477
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by archii View Post
It's not that black and white. Besides, just because JY never rolled him BEFORE means Chris has nothing he can do about this situation? that's complete BS. How do you not understand the concept of freerolling in this instance? If I bet with a dude who is broke (not saying JY is/was broke, although it looks like he has had liquidity problems for a while) it's essentially same as burning money. You bet and if you lose fine you owe money. But if you win you dont get anything. How is it so hard to understand what is wrong with this, and how Chris does have a case to not pay.

To sheets, of course Chris would have tried to claim his winnings, but I dont see how that is relevant in this? If JY is broke chris can try to claim his winnings but it's just not going to happen. So I dont see how it matters had Chris _tried_ to claim his winnings had he won, since it's not like he would have gotten paid anyways.
We're not dealing in derivatives here, its black and white and CM knows it. CM had business with JY. Period. He made a decision to complicate things after talking to $18k guy. Then made another decision that made things even more complicated when he gave JY the runaround so he could "investigate" the situation.
When you make a bet and lose you don't get to "investigate" after the fact you pay! Everything else is background noise imo.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:11 AM   #478
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Yes, yes because it's equitable to see him walk away without owing anything and people owed by Jason are left in the lurch

IMO MM should agree to a mutually acceptable private arbitrator being appointed and one of the decisions he (and JY) should open his mind to accepting is that the arbitrator will then act (as if to be a receiver for a company in liquidation) for the interests of the creditors of JY and not JY himself and recover part or all of the said money owed by MM and pay the creditors and not JY.
This is not Chris' obligation. He bets with JY's bookie, not with JY directly. He did not bet with JY's bookie's bettors. It is not Chris' obligation to make these people whole.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:14 AM   #479
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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This is not Chris' obligation. He bets with JY's bookie, not with JY directly. He did not bet with JY's bookie's bettors. It is not Chris' obligation to make these people whole.
Accepting that JY is merely the agent and not the bookie, he still has authority to recover the bet!
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:25 AM   #480
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Accepting that JY is merely the agent and not the bookie, he still has authority to recover the bet!
It does not leave JY responsible to pay the winning players or collect from the losing players. An agents only job is to collect and payout for the bookmaker by using the bookmakers money. That's why JY's story doesn't make any sense. He was clearly running this operation on his own, got jammed up and came up with a story that didn't add up.

Think about it... If you were an agent and you had 4 players that won a combined $65K in a week and one losing player who lost $15k... If the "boss" disappeared, In no way are you responsible as an agent for coming up with the money. An agent is a runner that's it. JY should have called everyone who he was dealing with and told them the "boss" disappeared, here's his name, phone number, etc... I can't pay you but hopefully you can work something out with him... As far as MM goes he's in the clear until each owed player he spoke to comes forward and either says that the "boss" or JY paid them... Then at that point if I am MM I am sending the $15k.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:35 AM   #481
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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It does not leave JY responsible to pay the winning players or collect from the losing players. An agents only job is to collect and payout for the bookmaker by using the bookmakers money.
Yep

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Originally Posted by BBB624 View Post
That's why JY's story doesn't make any sense. He was clearly running this operation on his own, got jammed up and came up with a story that didn't add up.
Possibly

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Originally Posted by BBB624 View Post
Think about it... If you were an agent and you had 4 players that won a combined $65K in a week and one losing player who lost $15k... If the "boss" disappeared, In no way are you responsible as an agent for coming up with the money. An agent is a runner that's it. JY should have called everyone who he was dealing with and told them the "boss" disappeared, here's his name, phone number, etc... I can't pay you but hopefully you can work something out with him... As far as MM goes he's in the clear until each owed player he spoke to comes forward and either says that the "boss" or JY paid them... Then at that point if I am MM I am sending the $15k.
If what you are saying, assuming JY is the agent, is that if the bookie has skipped town and that alleviates MM of having to pay, why doesn't JY still have a responsibility to recover if he gets a piece of the action (%) as the agent?
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:39 AM   #482
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by BBB624 View Post
It does not leave JY responsible to pay the winning players or collect from the losing players. An agents only job is to collect and payout for the bookmaker by using the bookmakers money. That's why JY's story doesn't make any sense. He was clearly running this operation on his own, got jammed up and came up with a story that didn't add up.

Think about it... If you were an agent and you had 4 players that won a combined $65K in a week and one losing player who lost $15k... If the "boss" disappeared, In no way are you responsible as an agent for coming up with the money. An agent is a runner that's it. JY should have called everyone who he was dealing with and told them the "boss" disappeared, here's his name, phone number, etc... I can't pay you but hopefully you can work something out with him... As far as MM goes he's in the clear until each owed player he spoke to comes forward and either says that the "boss" or JY paid them... Then at that point if I am MM I am sending the $15k.
Then what value does the Agent add in the process? If he's assuming debts, then I see the value. He's guaranteeing both sides of the transaction, reducing risk for all involved ("I know X, he will cover these bets should something happen."). But if he's just a middleman, handing money from one party to another, why would anyone pay additional fees to cover the Agent costs for basically zero value add?

Seriously trying to understand the point of Agents in this process.

--PP
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:51 AM   #483
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by PraguePoker View Post
Then what value does the Agent add in the process? If he's assuming debts, then I see the value. He's guaranteeing both sides of the transaction, reducing risk for all involved ("I know X, he will cover these bets should something happen."). But if he's just a middleman, handing money from one party to another, why would anyone pay additional fees to cover the Agent costs for basically zero value add?

Seriously trying to understand the point of Agents in this process.

--PP
On top of handling the money...An agent brings in players that otherwise the bookie wouldn't have access to.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:56 AM   #484
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Yep unless this anonymous tip-off to MM at some airport in Europe about the 18k owing to them from JY comes forward
Good point! So why aren't the same people who are demanding that JY name his bookie, demand that CM name his source??? A little bit easier to out a random tipster than a bookie. And why isn't these tipsters ITT substantiating CM's case. Lets see:

1- CM places bets with bookie/agent rather than a legit sportsbook
2- CM has been "taken advantage" by these type of shady people in the past,but still places wagers with these types of characters
3- CM has a "credit" arrangement
4- CM has stiffed bookies in the past
5- CM is willing to let a 15k debt go public jeopardizing his reputation.

JY

1- Has been victimized by scammers in the past
2- But now becomes an "agent" willing to assume all of the risk for wagers for a small commission
3- His alleged "bookie" stiffed him, yet his is trying to collect on a loss.
4- He waits almost 2 years to try to collect on this "bet"
5- He pours all of his money in a restaurant (ouch!) and now wants the money to resolve this
6- He still hasn't settled up with the winners he owes
7- He refuses to out the alleged "bookie" to CM or the people he owes, and refer them to the "bookie" for collection or payment

Holy Bejeebuz, degens gonna degen. A freeroll becomes a reverse freeroll.

Last edited by TheRiverSniper; 10-29-2013 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:02 AM   #485
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
Good point! So why aren't the same people who are demanding that JY name his bookie, demand that CM name his source??? A little bit easier to out a random tipster than a bookie. And why isn't these tipsters ITT substantiating CM's case. Lets see:

1- CM places bets with bookie/agent rather than a legit sportsbook
2- CM has been "taken advantage" by these type of shady people in the past,but still places wagers with these types of characters
3- CM has a "credit" arrangement
4- CM has stiffed bookies in the past
5- CM is willing to let a 15k debt go public jeopardizing his reputation.

JY

1- Has been victimized by scammers in the past
2- But now becomes an "agent" willing to assume all of the risk for wagers for a small commission
3- His alleged "bookie" stiffed him, yet his is trying to collect on a loss.
4- He waits almost 2 years to try to collect on this "bet"
5- He pours all of his money in a restaurant (ouch!) and now wants the money to resolve this
6- He still hasn't settled up with the winners he owes

Holy Bejeebuz, degens gonna degen.
good point, Jason.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:03 AM   #486
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
If what you are saying, assuming JY is the agent, is that if the bookie has skipped town and that alleviates MM of having to pay, why doesn't JY still have a responsibility to recover if he gets a piece of the action (%) as the agent?
JY should have removed himself from the entire situation. Collecting MM's $15k so he can pocket "his cut" as an agent is a kick to everyone who is owed money in the balls.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:03 AM   #487
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by BBB624 View Post
It does not leave JY responsible to pay the winning players or collect from the losing players. An agents only job is to collect and payout for the bookmaker by using the bookmakers money. That's why JY's story doesn't make any sense. He was clearly running this operation on his own, got jammed up and came up with a story that didn't add up.

Think about it... If you were an agent and you had 4 players that won a combined $65K in a week and one losing player who lost $15k... If the "boss" disappeared, In no way are you responsible as an agent for coming up with the money. An agent is a runner that's it. JY should have called everyone who he was dealing with and told them the "boss" disappeared, here's his name, phone number, etc... I can't pay you but hopefully you can work something out with him... As far as MM goes he's in the clear until each owed player he spoke to comes forward and either says that the "boss" or JY paid them... Then at that point if I am MM I am sending the $15k.
Man times have changed, back in my old neighborhood we had what you guys call an agent. We called him "tree finga", he weighed 450lbs, had 3 fingers on one hand and carried around large bag of cement. You lose a bet you paid. Ahhh the good days...
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:13 AM   #488
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Man times have changed, back in my old neighborhood we had what you guys call an agent. We called him "tree finga", he weighed 450lbs, had 3 fingers on one hand and carried around large bag of cement. You lose a bet you paid. Ahhh the good days...
The MM/JY scenario is a lot different then using a "neighborhood book". It's very easy for someone who is acting as an agent living in NY (where the bookie is supposedly located) to tell the players (who I am assuming were placing all of their wagers online) located God knows where in this situation that the bookie has disappeared.

When you use a neighborhood bookie, you know who he is....He has a name and a face...So the chances of him "disappearing" are very slim. Sure the neighborhood book might go bust and it might take him sometime to pay but he isn't disappearing in thin air. But in the rare occurrence the book did go bust and disappear that doesn't leave people like your friend "tree finga" responsible for the debt owed by the bookie.

Last edited by BBB624; 10-29-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:22 AM   #489
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Man times have changed, back in my old neighborhood we had what you guys call an agent. We called him "tree finga", he weighed 450lbs, had 3 fingers on one hand and carried around large bag of cement. You lose a bet you paid. Ahhh the good days...
However, the more things change the more they stay the same.

1."I lost but I am not paying until other people pay, (but believe me if I had won I would be looking for the money) " has been an excuse for nonpayment of bettors dating back forever.

2."I cant pay you until XYZ pays me, (but believe me, I would be asking you for the money if you lost)" has been an excuse for nonpayment by agents dating back forever.

blah....it's all bad.

I dunno, I hate it all but I think I just have to respect "I cant pay you now, but I will when cash flow improves" from Jason, as opposed to "I don't owe anything even though I lost" from Chris....But I see Chris's side too. DAMN I wish I could be objective hahahahah.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:35 AM   #490
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
However, the more things change the more they stay the same.

1."I lost but I am not paying until other people pay, (but believe me if I had won I would be looking for the money) " has been an excuse for nonpayment of bettors dating back forever.

2."I cant pay you until XYZ pays me, (but believe me, I would be asking you for the money if you lost)" has been an excuse for nonpayment by agents dating back forever.

blah....it's all bad.

I dunno, I hate it all but I think I just have to respect "I cant pay you now, but I will when cash flow improves" from Jason, as opposed to "I don't owe anything even though I lost" from Chris....But I see Chris's side too. DAMN I wish I could be objective hahahahah.
Stop trying to link CM and JY's issue with yours! We get it. You want your money and CM has the deep pockets (maybe). But your issue is with JY and not CM. You have no issue with CM and your payment is not contingent upon anything going on between the two of them. Worry about collecting your money from JY.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:41 AM   #491
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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However, the more things change the more they stay the same.

1."I lost but I am not paying until other people pay, (but believe me if I had won I would be looking for the money) " has been an excuse for nonpayment of bettors dating back forever.

2."I cant pay you until XYZ pays me, (but believe me, I would be asking you for the money if you lost)" has been an excuse for nonpayment by agents dating back forever.

blah....it's all bad.

I dunno, I hate it all but I think I just have to respect "I cant pay you now, but I will when cash flow improves" from Jason, as opposed to "I don't owe anything even though I lost" from Chris....But I see Chris's side too. DAMN I wish I could be objective hahahahah.
If CM were to pay JY, why are you 100% certain you would get your money?
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:52 AM   #492
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by TheRiverSniper View Post
You have no issue with CM and your payment is not contingent upon anything going on between the two of them. Worry about collecting your money from JY.
I completely agree with this. Chris's business with Jason has nothing to do with me at all....but the reality is, that if Jason will pay out quicker if he collects from Chris, then I would sure want that? I know that in theory I am not even supposed to know who Chris is, much less that he owes Jason money.

Last edited by sheetsworld; 10-29-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:53 AM   #493
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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If CM were to pay JY, why are you 100% certain you would get your money?
I am not certain of anything, but I have faith that I will get my money eventually regardless, (he did pay me some, and I have waited alot longer to get paid debts in the past. I don't mind waiting, but would prefer not to obviously).....but the sooner Jason actually has cash, the sooner that will be, so I am allowed to root for scenarios where that happens, no?

Last edited by sheetsworld; 10-29-2013 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:55 AM   #494
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
However, the more things change the more they stay the same.

1."I lost but I am not paying until other people pay, (but believe me if I had won I would be looking for the money) " has been an excuse for nonpayment of bettors dating back forever.

2."I cant pay you until XYZ pays me, (but believe me, I would be asking you for the money if you lost)" has been an excuse for nonpayment by agents dating back forever.

blah....it's all bad.

I dunno, I hate it all but I think I just have to respect "I cant pay you now, but I will when cash flow improves" from Jason, as opposed to "I don't owe anything even though I lost" from Chris....But I see Chris's side too. DAMN I wish I could be objective hahahahah.
JY not paying you, then going out buying/investing in a restaurant is bad. Making you wait till MM pays is scummy. But that another whole ball of wax when dealing these kind of bookmakers.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:58 AM   #495
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
Yep



Possibly



If what you are saying, assuming JY is the agent, is that if the bookie has skipped town and that alleviates MM of having to pay, why doesn't JY still have a responsibility to recover if he gets a piece of the action (%) as the agent?
because as an agent the commission is so small (usually piece of vig) it's not worth this type of hassle. agent's bring in new customers. that's their job. they hook up the bettors with the bookie, and relay money back and forth. nothing else.

Jason's actions are more in line w/ a bookies and not as an agent.

Biggest thing is him claiming he fronted the money to the bookie.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:59 AM   #496
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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I completely agree with this. I can still give my opinion on what I think is right, although it will certainly be interpreted as biased, though.
Of course you can give your opinion and there is no question you are biased. But, when people say CM should pay you or the others, it is utter bull****. There is no transaction between you and CM. And CM has no obligation to pay you one red cent. I do have a few questions:

1- If JY was just an agent why did he not give you the name, address, and phone number of the bookie who disappeared for you to collect your winnings?

2- Why are you making a financial arrangement with JY and not the bookie?

3- Why did you not have issues with JY investing in a restaurant before resolving his debt with you?
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:05 AM   #497
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Alright guys...we have reached an agreement- I had a long post to try and answer some of the ridiculous questions in here. Some of you guys just choose not to read, or it will never be enough- even more of the reason im glad this is all over with.

And it will be mentioned that like I said all along, I was never scamming anyone, I wasn't this "boss" person, my timeline was correct that in between the 2 instances let me remind you guys that I opened a substantial business- which again is why my liquid cash wasn't available to handle 2nd situation. I got screwed just as much as anyone, and ive been simply trying to make things right with all parties to move forward...and I believe that is happening now.

as for chris- I was always a fan as well as many of you are. But even outside of that I believe him to be a good genuine guy, him and I have had many conversations about everything ranging from poker, and sports to my business, our families and our mutual hatred of being taken advantage of. I don't feel like he had bad intentions ever, and he is incredibly jaded by that world and people in general, as am I...

there are no hard feelings, and we will probably have a beer out in vegas next time I see him...
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:08 AM   #498
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Alright guys...we have reached an agreement- I had a long post to try and answer some of the ridiculous questions in here. Some of you guys just choose not to read, or it will never be enough- even more of the reason im glad this is all over with.

And it will be mentioned that like I said all along, I was never scamming anyone, I wasn't this "boss" person, my timeline was correct that in between the 2 instances let me remind you guys that I opened a substantial business- which again is why my liquid cash wasn't available to handle 2nd situation. I got screwed just as much as anyone, and ive been simply trying to make things right with all parties to move forward...and I believe that is happening now.

as for chris- I was always a fan as well as many of you are. But even outside of that I believe him to be a good genuine guy, him and I have had many conversations about everything ranging from poker, and sports to my business, our families and our mutual hatred of being taken advantage of. I don't feel like he had bad intentions ever, and he is incredibly jaded by that world and people in general, as am I...

there are no hard feelings, and we will probably have a beer out in vegas next time I see him...
so you actually fronted the bookie Chris' 15/20k?
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:08 AM   #499
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Pathetic of JY to try to extort payment from CM by hanging his reputation over his head and threaten public shame. Take care of your dirty laundry behind closed doors.

Nice to see a scumbag who owes $80k publicly shaming someone who owes him $15k.

I have gained a lot of respect for CM for not paying when he knew the damage to his reputation from this thread was going to be greater. Good to see someone taking a stand for what they think is right.
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Old 10-29-2013, 10:23 AM   #500
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
Alright guys...we have reached an agreement- I had a long post to try and answer some of the ridiculous questions in here. Some of you guys just choose not to read, or it will never be enough- even more of the reason im glad this is all over with.

And it will be mentioned that like I said all along, I was never scamming anyone, I wasn't this "boss" person, my timeline was correct that in between the 2 instances let me remind you guys that I opened a substantial business- which again is why my liquid cash wasn't available to handle 2nd situation. I got screwed just as much as anyone, and ive been simply trying to make things right with all parties to move forward...and I believe that is happening now.

as for chris- I was always a fan as well as many of you are. But even outside of that I believe him to be a good genuine guy, him and I have had many conversations about everything ranging from poker, and sports to my business, our families and our mutual hatred of being taken advantage of. I don't feel like he had bad intentions ever, and he is incredibly jaded by that world and people in general, as am I...

there are no hard feelings, and we will probably have a beer out in vegas next time I see him...
(guy who still hasn't answered any of the pertinent questions that have been put to him itt)
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