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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-25-2013, 06:57 PM   #351
JPB383
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
Chris, as I said in earlier posts, you should not pay a penny until Jason proves that the bookie is real (and he paid him on your behalf).

Even if the bookie turns out to be real (which is looking increasingly doubtful, given Jason's dodging of these questions), you don't know if Jason really paid him the money you owed.

Jason must proof BOTH of these items, or you are making a huge mistake by paying anything at this point.

If Jason wants to come clean and admit that the bookie didn't exist, he needs to at least provide substantial financial proof that he had all of the money for all outstanding bets as of April, 2012. If he cannot provide this proof, then it is reasonable to assume this was a freeroll, and the bet can be canceled.

In fact, you could very easily cancel this bet even if Jason did have the money, as your bet was with the bookie, not Jason. If the bookie doesn't exist, you bet with a nonexistent party, and therefore the bet is null and void.

Similarly, I can announce that I have a $100,000 bet with Manti Teo's girlfriend Lennay Kekua, and "she" could never collect, because "she" doesn't exist. If someone came to me and said that they paid Lennay the $100,000 I owed her, I would not be responsible to pay them back, as it is impossible to pay a debt to a fictitious person.
Disagree. If JY's boss didn't exist but JY can prove he had sufficient funds to pay off Chris than Chris still owes the $$$.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:07 PM   #352
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
Anyone who disagrees with the above, I have a proposition for you:

1) I will refer you to my bookie friend, named I.M. Afaker

2) I.M. will book your bets on the MLB World Series. I.M. is such a nice guy that he will give you double the current Vegas payout if you win.

3) If you lose, give the money to me, and I will forward it over to I.M.

4) If you win, I can't guarantee that I.M. will pay you. If he doesn't, it's between you and him, so I will not owe you anything personally.

Let me know if you want this sweet deal.

DOUBLE ODDS! How can you turn it down?
Kilowatt making his usual strong logical case.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:14 PM   #353
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I just want to do right in this situation. I want to do what is right for me if I was getting freerolled he was insolvent and I want to do right by Jason if I wasn't. I would not of taken it this far if I thought I was wrong.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:22 PM   #354
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
Chris, as I said in earlier posts, you should not pay a penny until Jason proves that the bookie is real (and he paid him on your behalf).

Even if the bookie turns out to be real (which is looking increasingly doubtful, given Jason's dodging of these questions), you don't know if Jason really paid him the money you owed.

Jason must proof BOTH of these items, or you are making a huge mistake by paying anything at this point.

If Jason wants to come clean and admit that the bookie didn't exist, he needs to at least provide substantial financial proof that he had all of the money for all outstanding bets as of April, 2012. If he cannot provide this proof, then it is reasonable to assume this was a freeroll, and the bet can be canceled.

In fact, you could very easily cancel this bet even if Jason did have the money, as your bet was with the bookie, not Jason. If the bookie doesn't exist, you bet with a nonexistent party, and therefore the bet is null and void.

Similarly, I can announce that I have a $100,000 bet with Manti Teo's girlfriend Lennay Kekua, and "she" could never collect, because "she" doesn't exist. If someone came to me and said that they paid Lennay the $100,000 I owed her, I would not be responsible to pay them back, as it is impossible to pay a debt to a fictitious person.
Compelling argument, but what about the flip side. Suppose a bookie/agent takes and fronts a bet from a customer. The customer gives him a story that he is out of town and will settle up with him as soon as he gets back in town. But really needs to get the bet down ASAP. The customer hits a 50k score and wants to meet at the diner tomorrow to settle up. On his way to the diner, the agent/bookie then finds out from friends or other agents/bookies that the guy is busto and owes several other agent/bookies money. He has been late for weeks and owes 50k in total to other agents/bookies. Would the agent/bookie have the right to stiff the customer, as he was being freerolled?

I am not saying this is what happened. In fact I'm beginning to think MM was in fact being freerolled. If someone legitimately stiffed me for 25k, I would not have waited 2 years and they would be walking with a slight limp. And their girlfriend would be visiting me on Friday nights. Sounds like the restaurant business can be a little rough on the wallet.

Last edited by TheRiverSniper; 10-25-2013 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:26 PM   #355
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Well biggest by far since my college days. I was different back then and by the way I did pay off the two books I owed after I won the series not that it matters much
I was the one that asked, and yes it does matter to me. You acknowledged you owed, and you paid when you had the money. I am not sure how JY's sports book operated, so I believe you don't feel you owe until you get the answers you are looking for.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:28 PM   #356
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I'm also a fan of yours CM, shortly after you won the WSOP, I played 5-10nl with you at the MGM. I didn't do to well as I was new to poker, but you were very down to earth and fun at the table.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:32 PM   #357
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by boobies4me View Post
I'm assuming this post has probably already been beaten up by the time of me posting this but I'm just reading along and wanted to respond to it regardless of it being many posts ago.


The problem begins the moment he takes a bet that he actually doesn't have the money to afford to pay out. If he's depending on receiving the $10k to even be able to pay the other players back because he doesn't have the money then that's a crock of ****. A casino that's running a business is only going to take bets they can cover regardless of the circumstances because they, you know, actually care about being reputable and not being deadbeats.

Pardon us mere mortal "non sportsbettor" people for not just accepting the sportsbetting worlds ethical code where you can let people place bets for more than you can afford to pay out on your own dime in the event you get stiffed. Just because in the sportsbetting world this may be acceptable doesn't mean it actually is. Telling people who aren't a part of this world to stop posting is just further ignorance. I'm not part of the pool world either but that doesn't mean I can't decide for myself that a lot of the nonsense that probably goes on in that world is for scumbags and deadbeats. Yes, for them, inside that world they may see it differently, but that just means for them lacking morals is normal relative to other people in their world, but in absolute terms they're viewed as deadbeats. NVG isn't brutal, the reality of being held to a higher ethical standard is.
Sigh, u didn't grasp the most important part which is that JY isn't on the hook for anything if he is truly the agent other than his own players and then he's only liable for a % if that but it's usually a freeroll. If JY has more coming in than going out then he is just going to collect from the players he agents for and have $ left over. If ppl were up 25k and down 5k than he'd need to make sure the book could cover it.

The NVG brutal part has nothing to do with ethical standards, it has to do with ppl making comments on things they have no knowledge about
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:37 PM   #358
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
yes because it's very hard to understand the incredibly difficult and arcane business of "bookmaking". Clearly only licensed bookmakers and Math PhDs should be able to comment on this highly specialized and complex business.
It's about the culture. Some things can't be understood without firsthand experience. I don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:51 PM   #359
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

What I find amusing about this whole debacle is that people who otherwise seem intelligent human beings think they can make a profit sports betting with 10% vig. Never underestimate the stupidity of the average gambler.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:03 PM   #360
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Normally I would say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzitup View Post
The bottom line...you lost money to Jason, you pay him. What he is doing with the other guys is none of your business.

But in this instance I would say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPB383 View Post
From the looks of it Jason had no intention to pay him if he won. Why should he allow himself to get freerolled?
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:04 PM   #361
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by heater View Post
It's about the culture. Some things can't be understood without firsthand experience. I don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.
Very true.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:06 PM   #362
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aek203 View Post
What I find amusing about this whole debacle is that people who otherwise seem intelligent human beings think they can make a profit sports betting with 10% vig. Never underestimate the stupidity of the average gambler.
Finally a man with no gambling leaks. No horses, craps, baccarat, sports, slots or lottery for this guy. He finds the 4 billion people that play any of these "amusing". You're the best!! I find it amusing when people pay to go to the movies. Bunch of suckers....I just wait for it to come to my tv!!
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:10 PM   #363
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aek203 View Post
What I find amusing about this whole debacle is that people who otherwise seem intelligent human beings think they can make a profit sports betting with 10% vig. Never underestimate the stupidity of the average gambler.
Or the stupidity of an average poster, who would post something like this.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:31 PM   #364
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by B00T View Post
Or the stupidity of an average poster, who would post something like this.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:13 PM   #365
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BklynGrinder View Post
Amazing to me Jason is so willing to admit he was an agent, basically the same thing Boosted J is facing jail time for.
Thought this as well. Seems like admitting illegal activity on the internet is probably a bad idea.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:32 PM   #366
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Rob999 View Post
Finally a man with no gambling leaks. No horses, craps, baccarat, sports, slots or lottery for this guy. He finds the 4 billion people that play any of these "amusing". You're the best!! I find it amusing when people pay to go to the movies. Bunch of suckers....I just wait for it to come to my tv!!
I get your point. I have no problem with people gambling for the sake of gambling. I live in a country where gambling is completely legal so if you're a skilled sports better you actually have a chance of winning long term which is clearly not the case in the US.

As with pretty much everything (alcohol, drugs, gambling) prohibition is never good for the consumer.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:36 PM   #367
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Pretty simple.

Once everyone else has been paid they money they are owed, then MM should pay.

Until then, he should not.
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Old 10-25-2013, 10:49 PM   #368
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Ansky View Post
Thought this as well. Seems like admitting illegal activity on the internet is probably a bad idea.
+1... He must be under a lot of money pressure to have taken this enormous risk and opened himself up to potentially negative consequences.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:03 PM   #369
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

my opinion on the situation doesn't matter, but i'm on JY's side. But lol @ u guys all admitting to all this illegal sportsbetting and bookies and stuff for everyone to read... use some sense FFS!
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:03 PM   #370
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Hail Circe View Post
Nice to see Sheetsworld come forward.

If his story can be validated by Jason, then I do not see why any of the three involved would have a problem with CM paying Sheets.

If Jason is waiting for CM in order to pay Sheets, then this seems fairly simple.

Not sure of the figures but at least it would be a start in the right direction.

Sheets wants what is owed to him. Jason wants to have the money to be able to do what is right in paying back people he owes once he gets some money from CM and CM was going to do something like this anyway from the get go, so here we are.

Win, win, win?

btw Sheets...you seem like you know what you are doing when it comes to Sportsbetting :P
So where was CM s coming from if he won?
 
Old 10-25-2013, 11:15 PM   #371
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by LiveActionPro View Post
You guys are idiots, Jason is not going to OUT his bookie on here.
Why not? The guy ****ed him by leaving and not paying out! What allegiance does he have to him now? If the guy was the " serious " type who u may be worried to "out" , he would have access to $$ to solve this whole mess
 
Old 10-25-2013, 11:41 PM   #372
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Has anyone sought the opinion of one Haralabob Voulgaris?
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:55 PM   #373
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
im not gonna respond to every dumb question or from complete randoms that i have no clue who you are- so this will be the only time that happens...


i wasnt betting- you probably cant understand that...

he lost this money in like march/april of 2012

people won $ in october/november of 2012
So why haven't you paid the others? CM's money should have no bearing on whether you pay them out.

*I do think CM should pay you immediately, but I'm just curious why you think it's okay to stiff 2 other guys while you wait for another client to pay up? That's not how bookieing works.

And if you were "only" an agent and the book ran off, you're still on the hook for the money since agents ALWAYS vouch for the book (and the agents vouch for the client if he refuses to pay the book).

Last edited by rakeme; 10-26-2013 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:56 PM   #374
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by vazdog33 View Post
Has anyone sought the opinion of one Haralabob Voulgaris?
Why, it's not like he's ever been freerolled in sports & he is way too knowledgeable about the business to post
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:46 AM   #375
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aek203 View Post
What I find amusing about this whole debacle is that people who otherwise seem intelligent human beings think they can make a profit sports betting with 10% vig. Never underestimate the stupidity of the average gambler.
what i find amusing is that you think these credit shops with their ten percent or even higher on props vig can't be beaten. never underestimate your own stupidity.
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