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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-25-2013, 01:31 PM   #326
Rob999
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Before arbitration I would like an answer to two questions

How in the hell do you have balance at 25k? My biggest bet of my life was the 7k bet I made so I know my number.

How do you open up the book for sheets in October when your boss is gone and you are insolvant?
Think you should answer his accusation that you were looking to be backed during the World Series and use that money to pay him the money you lost sports betting.
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:42 PM   #327
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Would everyone just stop being degens and pay your ****ing gambling debts? FFS
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:01 PM   #328
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Before arbitration I would like an answer to two questions

How in the hell do you have balance at 25k? My biggest bet of my life was the 7k bet I made so I know my number.

How do you open up the book for sheets in October when your boss is gone and you are insolvant?

Is this true moneymaker? I watched the "All in" documentary were you stated you bet online $15k on 4 different games and lost all 4. Had to explain the situation to your dad? Now I'm confused.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:05 PM   #329
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Well biggest by far since my college days. I was different back then and by the way I did pay off the two books I owed after I won the series not that it matters much
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:14 PM   #330
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Well biggest by far since my college days. I was different back then and by the way I did pay off the two books I owed after I won the series not that it matters much
DON'T GO TO ARBITRATION. you know he was freerolling you, and arbitration is just another freeroll for him to possibly get awarded money he doesn't deserve.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:22 PM   #331
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

The agent IS on the hook for both sides, but the fact is that most (all) agents are just wanna be bookies without a bankroll. So when something like this happens its always a disaster. Believe me I've been in plenty of situations very similar to this.

However, the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that Jason wasn't an agent and he was taking the action himself. 99% of agents I know are broke dudes who are either good at it and go off on their own, or they suck and someone gets screwed and they disappear.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:12 PM   #332
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob999 View Post
Think you should answer his accusation that you were looking to be backed during the World Series and use that money to pay him the money you lost sports betting.
Good to see JY's plan is working.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:22 PM   #333
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Mmmm....seems like a good way to inherit a limp for the rest of your life. Maybe the loss of a digit or 2?
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:23 PM   #334
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Simple solution to this whole mess. Jason send me the bets I made and the bets ak87 made as well as one other guy who I will pm you as he hasn't posted in the thread. All the bets were made on computer so should be a record. If I get the sheets and my timeline is wrong I will pay what I owe and apologize.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:26 PM   #335
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I am sending bansooners the last bet I made now for verification of documents. I know how I bet that game so I will know if my sheet accurate
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:40 PM   #336
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

A few questions. WTF is MM placing bets with a bookie/agent in the first place?

1-This was college BB and any online site could take on his action with much less vig. Bovada, Intertops etc.

2- Why not place the bets at a landbased sports book? I heard they take bets in Las Vegas and a few other places. And you get a ****ing receipt.

I see both sides of this issue and some good points have been made. It looks like they both may have been freerolling each other. CM wasn't going to payout a loss, and JY was not going to payout a win.

BTW having JY out his "bookie" is ridiculous for many reason. He could easily pay someone a few bucks to back his story even though he never placed the bets. So I dont know how much credence you could give to someone who claims "I am the bookie and here are the betting slips".

Stay in school........
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:51 PM   #337
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I am sending bansooners the last bet I made now for verification of documents. I know how I bet that game so I will know if my sheet accurate


Confirming that I received this from Chris
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:09 PM   #338
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by [ ] NameDelivers View Post
Proof...?

Why would ftp lend Barry G money when he's a multimillionaire already sponsored by PS?

Why would Barry G need to borrow 500k when he's a multimillionaire already sponsored by PS?
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...-tilt-1161767/

Didn't mean to derail. Thought someone else would've answered this for me
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:22 PM   #339
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I made the money in October 2012.

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Old 10-25-2013, 05:26 PM   #340
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Jeez I'm a big fan of Chris. It's up to him what he does though I wouldn't do this in the first place anyway. hope this gets sorted out soon for you!
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:32 PM   #341
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I appreciate you being a fan and I don't want to do this but I been scammed enough. If I am wrong somehow I will be first to admit and pay the man with an apology.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:45 PM   #342
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I'm assuming this post has probably already been beaten up by the time of me posting this but I'm just reading along and wanted to respond to it regardless of it being many posts ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BanSooners
If JY has 5 bettors he is an agent for and it's something like this

player A +1000
player B + 3000
player C +500
player D -10k

In JY's world he is fine .
The problem begins the moment he takes a bet that he actually doesn't have the money to afford to pay out. If he's depending on receiving the $10k to even be able to pay the other players back because he doesn't have the money then that's a crock of ****. A casino that's running a business is only going to take bets they can cover regardless of the circumstances because they, you know, actually care about being reputable and not being deadbeats.

Pardon us mere mortal "non sportsbettor" people for not just accepting the sportsbetting worlds ethical code where you can let people place bets for more than you can afford to pay out on your own dime in the event you get stiffed. Just because in the sportsbetting world this may be acceptable doesn't mean it actually is. Telling people who aren't a part of this world to stop posting is just further ignorance. I'm not part of the pool world either but that doesn't mean I can't decide for myself that a lot of the nonsense that probably goes on in that world is for scumbags and deadbeats. Yes, for them, inside that world they may see it differently, but that just means for them lacking morals is normal relative to other people in their world, but in absolute terms they're viewed as deadbeats. NVG isn't brutal, the reality of being held to a higher ethical standard is.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:11 PM   #343
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PraguePoker
It's the Helmuths and Negraneaus of the world that have staying power. Not because they are the best poker players, clearly they are not (although both are very good). It's because they are able to stay grounded. They know how to manage their money.

Helmuth always taunted the young kids about their staying power, inevitably after losing a big pot. He was outplayed on the felt, but he knew it was a marathon, not a sprint. And where are they now and where is Helmuth?
And you know Helmuth is in great shape why? Because ESPN told you so? Like Erick Lindgren and Greenstein too right? For anyone that's inside of these circles it's very common knowledge most of these players you think are doing so great actually aren't. Helmuth was known to have been in bad shape financailly prior to his tourney heater in recent times. Sounds like great money management to me needing to string together a heater on the live tourney circuit to stay cookin.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:29 PM   #344
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poogs View Post
This isn't true. Again, people giving opinions when they don't know what here talking about. If Jason was an agent, as he says he was, then he doesn't need any kind of bankroll at all. Agents are just middlemen
You don't seem to get it. Who or what Jason was here isn't the most relevant part. The relevant part is that a bet was accepted from Chris that couldn't be paid out if he had won, evidenced by the others who placed bets and won. This suggests Chris was freerolled. Regardless of who JY is or isn't in this situation doesn't change the fact that if Chris wasn't going to get paid when he won then he shouldn't be obligated to pay when he lost. Even if JY was the middleman/agent (gosh darn, this part was really oh so tough to understand this complicated sportsbetting stuff) then he shouldn't be going to another victim of the scam asking him to cough up money to pay someone else off when he doesn't have an obligation anymore after things are discovered to be fraudulent.

The other people (like sheets) owed money were scammed by the book, it's not CM's responsibility to make them whole. And plus, the example that was being responded to was from the perspective of JY being the one taking the bets himself, which other posters who "do know what they're talking about" (from sportsbetting experience) have already said was the most likely case here anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isteal
Just pay the bet. You made it. You lost it. Whether or not JY is paying other people doesn't matter.
LOL. EV. What is it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap
Before arbitration I would like an answer to two questions

How in the hell do you have balance at 25k? My biggest bet of my life was the 7k bet I made so I know my number.

How do you open up the book for sheets in October when your boss is gone and you are insolvant?
Given how this thread has gone it doesn't seem to me that you should be jumping into arbitration so soon. As others have explained, the onus seems to be on JY. Other players being owed money at least proves that the book 100% was taking bets it couldn't pay out at some point, the question now is just timeline. The information that needs to come out to address this is in your and JY's hands, so it could just as well be posted here without freerolling yourself in some arbitration. There were also some strong arguments posted for why the timeline here for when they became insolvent isn't particularly relevant.

Last edited by boobies4me; 10-25-2013 at 06:44 PM. Reason: added an lol
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:34 PM   #345
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
To clarify timeline of events. I discovered that Jason owed 18k back around April when I lost. I was in an airport in Europe heading home with every intention to pay Jason. When I found this out yes I waited/stalled whatever you want to call it. Another guy came to me saying Jason owed him 24k a few weeks later. This is long before I knew about sheets. Sheets called me several months later and told me his experience. His "boss" supposedly split back in April but according to sheets he didn't start betting again with Jason till October of that year. I know Jason was completely insolvent then and his "boss" was gone yet he opened up his book for sheets to start betting again.

Jason and I spoke on phone about 3 months ago and he told me I was wrong and continued to tell me he was going to post the situation. He said I borrowed 2k from him and didn't pay that back which I 100 percent know I did during the lccf crap. He was certain I didn't so I agreed to pay him 2k since he thinks I borrowed money and didn't pay him back. I also told him again I am not paying when you were freeroling me. He asked me to pay the first person who brought up his 18k debt and I sent him the money on pokerstars. After I sent it to him he want to set up a payment plan with me to settle the rest of what Jason owes. I told him I am not paying that debt.

For those of you saying I made bets and lost so I must pay are dead wrong end of story. If the book you are betting with is insolvent and you not getting paid then you can't be expected to paid. Clearly a freeroll. And there is zero percent chance I would reverse freeroll Jason or whatever as I do value my reputation.

The decision not to pay did bot come lightly as I knew it would look bad for me, however, I was convinced enough that he was insolvent and freerolling me I know I am right in the situation
This is a crappy situation for both me and Jason and no one is a winner here and it does look bad for both of us.

That being said I know I made right decision after reading about gostatego who I never knew about and his struggles to pay those debts but reopen the book for sheets. By the way since sheets did come in here and speak I will mention that he was the person who contacted me and said that Jason paid him 500 I believe on his 8k debt.
Moneymaker made up 10 lengths with this post to draw even.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:47 PM   #346
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Chris, as I said in earlier posts, you should not pay a penny until Jason proves that the bookie is real (and he paid him on your behalf).

Even if the bookie turns out to be real (which is looking increasingly doubtful, given Jason's dodging of these questions), you don't know if Jason really paid him the money you owed.

Jason must proof BOTH of these items, or you are making a huge mistake by paying anything at this point.

If Jason wants to come clean and admit that the bookie didn't exist, he needs to at least provide substantial financial proof that he had all of the money for all outstanding bets as of April, 2012. If he cannot provide this proof, then it is reasonable to assume this was a freeroll, and the bet can be canceled.

In fact, you could very easily cancel this bet even if Jason did have the money, as your bet was with the bookie, not Jason. If the bookie doesn't exist, you bet with a nonexistent party, and therefore the bet is null and void.

Similarly, I can announce that I have a $100,000 bet with Manti Teo's girlfriend Lennay Kekua, and "she" could never collect, because "she" doesn't exist. If someone came to me and said that they paid Lennay the $100,000 I owed her, I would not be responsible to pay them back, as it is impossible to pay a debt to a fictitious person.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:49 PM   #347
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Sounds to me like Jason doesn't have a sent, how is he going to escrow 25k for arbitration
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:51 PM   #348
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Anyone who disagrees with the above, I have a proposition for you:

1) I will refer you to my bookie friend, named I.M. Afaker

2) I.M. will book your bets on the MLB World Series. I.M. is such a nice guy that he will give you double the current Vegas payout if you win.

3) If you lose, give the money to me, and I will forward it over to I.M.

4) If you win, I can't guarantee that I.M. will pay you. If he doesn't, it's between you and him, so I will not owe you anything personally.

Let me know if you want this sweet deal.

DOUBLE ODDS! How can you turn it down?
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:52 PM   #349
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by isteal View Post
I agree. You make a bet....you pay it. Period. If you decide to make a bet with someone who may be freerolling you, that is your fault. Do your research before placing 25k in bets with someone.
MM should pay his bet because if he didn't, he'd be freerolling JY? JY freerolling MM, that is ok? Solid logic.
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:57 PM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isteal View Post
Just pay the bet. You made it. You lost it. Whether or not JY is paying other people doesn't matter. Did CM book with those other people? No. Any time you place a bet, you have to know you might be getting freerolled.......so it is ultimately your responsibility. If he didnt know that risk, then he is an idiot. So knowing the risk, and finding out you may have been freerolled in my opinion doesn't give you an out. In my opinion makes CM scum. I don't care about JY. CM made the bet. If he wants to use his freeroll out, then you have to accept some people will think your a POS degen scum loser, and that is the cost of using the out.
So, if I make a promise to buy a product or service from someone outed as a scammer who likely wouldn't be able to fulfill his part of our contract then I should still honor my part of the deal?

Jeez, the advice in this thread is getting really stupid.


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