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View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-25-2013, 11:02 AM   #301
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poogs View Post
This isn't true. Again, people giving opinions when they don't know what here talking about. If Jason was an agent, as he says he was, then he doesn't need any kind of bankroll at all. Agents are just middlemen
If Jason is just a middle man, why would he owe money to players for bets made aka sheets? If he was just the middle man he would just tell sheets that his bookie left town and doesn't assume responsibility right?
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:18 AM   #302
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

jesus. gamblers. is this even real life?

fwiw i think this is a super weird spot... dont think either jason or chris are in the wrong based on what they have posted. it all comes down to who is truthful.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:19 AM   #303
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Poogs View Post
This isn't true. Again, people giving opinions when they don't know what here talking about. If Jason was an agent, as he says he was, then he doesn't need any kind of bankroll at all. Agents are just middlemen
EmpireMaker wrote yesterday that agents typically vouch for the full amount (in both directions?) in order to get their cut. Hence agents need a bankroll.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:20 AM   #304
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by dankhank View Post
EmpireMaker said yesterday that agents usually vouch for the full amount (in both directions?) in order to get their cut. Hence agents need a bankroll.
this
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:28 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by LiveActionPro View Post
Chris is so wrong here it makes me sick, he broke all the rules of gambling in just his one rant.
I agree. You make a bet....you pay it. Period. If you decide to make a bet with someone who may be freerolling you, that is your fault. Do your research before placing 25k in bets with someone.

Especially someone with money as we all know Chris has. If you were being freerolled, that is YOUR fault. Its like playing a home game. You know it may be raided...but you go anyways. So if there is a risk of being freerolled, you knew this before and it isnt tour first rodeo.

Pay the man his money. No respect here anymore for a whinny degen world champion who can't pay a frigin bet. Pay the frigin bet and move on with your life. If you had won and he didnt pay you..whose fault is that? Take some responsibility you whinny millionaire.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:34 AM   #306
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by isteal View Post
I agree. You make a bet....you pay it. Period. If you decide to make a bet with someone who may be freerolling you, that is your fault. Do your research before placing 25k in bets with someone.

Especially someone with money as we all know Chris has. If you were being freerolled, that is YOUR fault. Its like playing a home game. You know it may be raided...but you go anyways. So if there is a risk of being freerolled, you knew this before and it isnt tour first rodeo.

Pay the man his money. No respect here anymore for a whinny degen world champion who can't pay a frigin bet. Pay the frigin bet and move on with your life. If you had won and he didnt pay you..whose fault is that? Take some responsibility you whinny millionaire.
The bolded is really horrible logic.

By your logic we should get 0 from FTP, Madoff victims should get 0, and JY should have no obligation to pay any of his debts.

Obv no one who is reasonable would bet any amount of money with someone who is freerolling them and obv CM prolly did a bit of research on JY who prolly had a near spotless record at the time. It's just a bad situation overall.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:37 AM   #307
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Considering MM has history of avoiding paying bookmakers debts before, all of his reasons for not paying are purely speculation, the dates of 'he said she said' are pretty convenient for him, and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
Ultimately I decided I was getting freerolled/scammed again and I will not pay this debt.
all looks pretty damning really. Even if JY was freerolling, (which could go either way) it looks like MM was just looking for a way not to pay. Surely it has gone on far too long for MM to just make that decision, when he should have paid up sooooo long ago.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:41 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Go Get It View Post
The bolded is really horrible logic.

By your logic we should get 0 from FTP, Madoff victims should get 0, and JY should have no obligation to pay any of his debts.

Obv no one who is reasonable would bet any amount of money with someone who is freerolling them and obv CM prolly did a bit of research on JY who prolly had a near spotless record at the time. It's just a bad situation overall.
Just pay the bet. You made it. You lost it. Whether or not JY is paying other people doesn't matter. Did CM book with those other people? No. Any time you place a bet, you have to know you might be getting freerolled.......so it is ultimately your responsibility. If he didnt know that risk, then he is an idiot. So knowing the risk, and finding out you may have been freerolled in my opinion doesn't give you an out. In my opinion makes CM scum. I don't care about JY. CM made the bet. If he wants to use his freeroll out, then you have to accept some people will think your a POS degen scum loser, and that is the cost of using the out.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:42 AM   #309
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I think knowing the bookie/agent in question would help sort this out.

As poogs can attest to, I know as much as anyone when it comes to dealing with bookies and agents.

It just so happens I also live within walking distance of JY's establishment, and one of my family members is one of his best customers.

I've dealt with pretty much anyone and everyone in this area the last couple of years.

I for one, would be interested to know which shop he was dealing with and may be able to verify the boss in question who disappeared.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:43 AM   #310
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Luddym View Post
Surely it has gone on far too long for MM to just make that decision,
Curious about this also. It seems like chris is addressing this now as he believed Jason was about to start the thread.

My question for Jason, why start a thread now, not 18 or 12 months ago?
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:43 AM   #311
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by isteal View Post
Just pay the bet. You made it. You lost it. Whether or not JY is paying other people doesn't matter. Did CM book with those other people? No. Any time you place a bet, you have to know you might be getting freerolled.......so it is ultimately your responsibility. If he didnt know that risk, then he is an idiot. So knowing the risk, and finding out you may have been freerolled in my opinion doesn't give you an out. In my opinion makes CM scum. I don't care about JY. CM made the bet. If he wants to use his freeroll out, then you have to accept some people will think your a POS degen scum loser, and that is the cost of using the out.
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:43 AM   #312
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankhank View Post
EmpireMaker wrote yesterday that agents typically vouch for the full amount (in both directions?) in order to get their cut. Hence agents need a bankroll.
Which isn't correct. If you vouched and were liable for the full amount, why on earth would u just take 20% or whatever % if you were 100% liable? Short answer is that you wouldn't, you would just assume the role of bookie and take the whole 100% if he lost and pay if he won
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:54 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by xalas View Post
I don't think you understand what a freeroll scam is and why the order of events matter.

Picture yourself as a book
You make a small bet with player A for 2k you lose and you don't pay up why? because you are short on money..

so you bet player B this time for 5k if you win you can pay player A and pocket the rest except you lose again do you pay now?
No because you're now deeper in debt.

Next is player C you bet 15k this time if you win you can pay both players A and B and pocket the rest, except you lose again!

NEXT is player D the BIG MONEY you bet 50k and WIN!

Were you scamming??... yes you were.. because if you had lost to Big MONEY too U would NOT had paid up, there for it was NEVER an honest bet.

Were you freerolling scamming Player D??.. Yes, if you won then great! but if you had lost then you were NEVER going to pay...

=======================================

Now the same thing except you have the money and your FIRST bet was with player D for 50k you win, big money doesn't pay but says he will a little bit later

You then tie up some of your money

You then lose smaller bets to player A B C but you know you can pay them the money you won from player D (viewed as a trusted player) and with your money tied up would had never taken the action except you knew you were getting 50k from player D except he doesn't pay you claiming that you were a cheat.

In this case you didn't cheat player D and yes he does owe you the money!
First part is spot on. But u can't make those bets without having the cash on hand. Money owed is never 100% so even if u never intended to freeroll players a,b,c, u essentially r if u don't have a guaranteed way to pay them at all times in the betting .
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:03 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by andrewga View Post
If Jason is just a middle man, why would he owe money to players for bets made aka sheets? If he was just the middle man he would just tell sheets that his bookie left town and doesn't assume responsibility right?
That just opens the door to easy scams, like Jason being the secret bookie in this case. Just an example.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:05 PM   #315
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by 123yourgone View Post
That just opens the door to easy scams, like Jason being the secret bookie in this case. Just an example.
That is exactly my point. He isn't just a middle man. He should have funds to cover in case his bookie splits. That is why I think he is scamming. Because he doesn't have the money to pay sheets.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:09 PM   #316
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by Jason Young View Post
idk what "jews" is supposed to mean...but ill go with a typo on that one

Answer me please because this sheets stuff was a good 1 full year later.

Did you or did you not tell me in vegas you were going to pay me in full you were sorry for the delay and you were working on a staking deal that was going to get you some $ and you would be able to take care of me with that.

Just tell the truth...its rather simple
Moneymaker looking for a staking deal to pay his bookie. Shame on you Chris!!! Although seriously? Was either party really expecting Moneymaker to find a sucker to stake him?
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:11 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by isteal View Post
Just pay the bet. You made it. You lost it. Whether or not JY is paying other people doesn't matter. Did CM book with those other people? No. Any time you place a bet, you have to know you might be getting freerolled.......so it is ultimately your responsibility. If he didnt know that risk, then he is an idiot. So knowing the risk, and finding out you may have been freerolled in my opinion doesn't give you an out. In my opinion makes CM scum. I don't care about JY. CM made the bet. If he wants to use his freeroll out, then you have to accept some people will think your a POS degen scum loser, and that is the cost of using the out.
Ok...maybe I am being too harsh. Apologies to CM. I just feel its best to pay the bet and move on, but that is me. I always pay bets and don't take them lightly. Obviously other circumstances here....whether or not that means he gets a get out of jail free card, is only his decision. If he really thinks he was being freerolled, then maybe agree to pay it once everyone else is paid. I would just pay it and be done with it however.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:17 PM   #318
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunlap View Post
I am going to bed for the night but I did look and I cant pull Skype conversations after 6 months. This happen over a year ago unfortunately. I would like to know how I got to 25k and how sheets got his account open in October way after your "boss" left.
The juice?
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:19 PM   #319
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That is exactly my point. He isn't just a middle man. He should have funds to cover in case his bookie splits. That is why I think he is scamming. Because he doesn't have the money to pay sheets.
It sounds right but then there is almost never a point in being just a middleman. My point in this situation is if he can't pay any of the debt, he has no right in collecting winnings either.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:25 PM   #320
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by 123yourgone View Post
It sounds right but then there is almost never a point in being just a middleman. My point in this situation is if he can't pay any of the debt, he has no right in collecting winnings either.
I agree.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:44 PM   #321
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by BanSooners View Post
Which isn't correct. If you vouched and were liable for the full amount, why on earth would u just take 20% or whatever % if you were 100% liable? Short answer is that you wouldn't, you would just assume the role of bookie and take the whole 100% if he lost and pay if he won
Every agent has diff rules. I was wrong in saying that most have to cover both sides. That is what I believe is ethically right. I can assure you that most have deals where they are on the hook for something or won't be invited to continue if someone stiff. Why don't agents take take the bets because if they get reputable people they are making free money. Alot of agents are nits with small bankrolls who can't afford to be the bank.
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:03 PM   #322
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

CM, you did not ask to be "the face of poker for the every man", but you have financially benefited from it.

With great power comes great responsibility.

Get this resolved quickly and do something inspiring so that this becomes old news.
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:07 PM   #323
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

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Originally Posted by EmpireMaker2 View Post
Every agent has diff rules. I was wrong in saying that most have to cover both sides. That is what I believe is ethically right. I can assure you that most have deals where they are on the hook for something or won't be invited to continue if someone stiff. Why don't agents take take the bets because if they get reputable people they are making free money. Alot of agents are nits with small bankrolls who can't afford to be the bank.

I knew what u meant, I was just clarifying std practice in high % of what I've seen and known to be true. Most deals the agent is never on the hook per se but what happens is he has to make that $ up. Let's say as an agent u are getting 20%.

Player A loses 1k and doesnt pay
Player B wins 1k and he obv gets paid from the book.

The agent now has to have another one of his players lose the 1000 that goes to the bookie without getting his %. When he is at sum zero then and only then is he making $ again

Your bolded part is EXACTLY why most agents would NEVER vouch or take the risk to be on the hook
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:28 PM   #324
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re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Before arbitration I would like an answer to two questions

How in the hell do you have balance at 25k? My biggest bet of my life was the 7k bet I made so I know my number.

How do you open up the book for sheets in October when your boss is gone and you are insolvant?
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:30 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
This is not hearsay.

Jason wants Chris to repay him for $25k supposedly fronted for Chris' debt to his boss.

If the boss exists and the $25k was really fronted, then Chris owes the money.

If Chris was tricked into betting with a fictitious person, then the bet is also now fictitious, and Chris owes nothing. Additionally, Jason really fronted nothing, as you cannot front $25k to a fake person.

Jason can't say "I gave this guy $25,000 on your behalf", and then refuse to provide proof that he really did so.

Why is this so hard for you and others to understand?
I would guess the same reason most people don't win at poker.
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