Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

View Poll Results: (Public Poll) I am siding with...
Chris Moneymaker 62 82.67%
Jason Young 13 17.33%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-24-2013, 03:36 PM   #101
Scary_Tiger
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Scary_Tiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 21,479
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by goobenstein View Post
So Jason owes money and refuses to pay.
Jason outs Chris as a scammer because he owes money and refuses to pay.

Simple enough.
It's not the same as allegedly Chris only didn't pay money since he discovered Jason was insolvent and wasn't paying out winners. Now Jason's story seems to be no one was owed money until late 2012 whereas Chris' story reads Jason owed people money shortly after Chris started betting with him. Chris, can you let us know when you first heard Jason owed someone else money, when you lost the last of your wagers with Jason's bookie, and how that affected when you were going to pay Jason?

March 2012 - Chris loses 25k to Jason's bookie.
April 2012 - Chris hears from his friends that Jason owes him money.
WSOP 2012 - Planned payback time.
October 2012 - Chris hears from Sheets that Jason owes him money.

The above timeline is fine for Chris, the below timeline is not.

March 2012 - Chris loses 25k to Jason's bookie.
WSOP 2012 - Planned payback time.
October 2012 - Chris hears from his friends that Jason owes him money.
October 2012 - Chris hears from Sheets that Jason owes him money.

Of course, neither timeline is fine for Jason, which is why I'd give Chris the benefit of the doubt here.
Scary_Tiger is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 03:44 PM   #102
razorbacker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
razorbacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DUNK CITY
Posts: 6,693
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

How does the agent work? Is the agent liable if a bookie skips out, and is it common for bookies to skip out on agents?
razorbacker is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 03:55 PM   #103
Your Mom
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: grinding out a mediocre living
Posts: 13,259
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

agents are normally just the go-between, taking a cut from the bookie. Result is a lot of ****ty situations, where the bookie disappears, the agent says not my fault, and the client gets screwed.
Your Mom is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 03:58 PM   #104
deleted acct
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I feel really bad for the guy who got scammed a lot while fronting strangers bets so he could make a commission off them. What a fool.

What are the chances here Jason was actually acting as the bookie himself?
 
Old 10-24-2013, 04:02 PM   #105
razorbacker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
razorbacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DUNK CITY
Posts: 6,693
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post

What are the chances here Jason was actually acting as the bookie himself?
That was going to be my next question
razorbacker is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:03 PM   #106
WAtR
veteran
 
WAtR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 2,387
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

People seem to be missing the crucial point here:

Chris says he lost this money over a period of two and a half weeks. At the end of this period, another individual got in touch saying Jason had owed him 18k for a few weeks. This certainly implies that Jason was already in debt and could not have paid Chris had Chris won, so this appears very much like Chris has been freerolled. The subsequent people who have told Chris that Jason owes them money too (presumably including Sheetworld) help to confirm this.

There is certainly no logic in Chris paying Sheetsworld instead of Jason, since it is both Chris and Sheetsworld who appear to have been scammed here.

It is the fact that Jason already had gambling debts with apparently no way to pay them (since they have still not been paid a year and a half later) when he took Chris' action that is the crucial point. There is no way Chris would have been paid had he won, so he should not incur any losses from the bets either.
WAtR is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:08 PM   #107
razorbacker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
razorbacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DUNK CITY
Posts: 6,693
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAtR View Post
People seem to be missing the crucial point here:

Chris says he lost this money over a period of two and a half weeks. At the end of this period, another individual got in touch saying Jason had owed him 18k for a few weeks. This certainly implies that Jason was already in debt and could not have paid Chris had Chris won, so this appears very much like Chris has been freerolled. The subsequent people who have told Chris that Jason owes them money too (presumably including Sheetworld) help to confirm this.

There is certainly no logic in Chris paying Sheetsworld instead of Jason, since it is both Chris and Sheetsworld who appear to have been scammed here.
If it can be confirmed that 18k was owed around the same time, I agree 100% with you.

There is no logic in Chris paying Sheets. Chris and Sheets have business with Jason, they do not have business with each other. Try telling your CC company to collect your bill from your buddy that owes you money.
razorbacker is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:12 PM   #108
chinamaniac
Pooh-Bah
 
chinamaniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the Internet
Posts: 3,717
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Looks like the classic example of a guy taking on action trying to freeroll. Can't blame Chris for not paying
chinamaniac is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:25 PM   #109
Turb0Licious
aka Turb0
 
Turb0Licious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: @SteveScales
Posts: 5,049
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Chris and Jason, why don't you both go to arbitration? Do you both agree to this?
Turb0Licious is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:28 PM   #110
sheetsworld
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,742
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by razorbacker View Post
If it can be confirmed that 18k was owed around the same time, I agree 100% with you.

There is no logic in Chris paying Sheets. Chris and Sheets have business with Jason, they do not have business with each other. Try telling your CC company to collect your bill from your buddy that owes you money.
I totally agree there is no "logic" in chris paying me. He doesn't owe me anything. That said, if he and Jason agreed that xxx of Chris's debt to Jason would be discharged by him paying me, I certainly wouldnt argue with that!

Of course, there are others in the same boat who would want a piece of that as well, but hey I am cooler than they are! and i posted first!

Obviously it is a big mess.
sheetsworld is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:29 PM   #111
sheetsworld
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,742
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turb0Licious View Post
Chris and Jason, why don't you both go to arbitration? Do you both agree to this?
Yes Yes let me arbitrate. I will be completely neutral.....

sheetsworld is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:29 PM   #112
Kilowatt
banned
 
Kilowatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,101
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadScientist View Post
If Chris can prove that the was getting freerolled, then he should not pay.
If Jason Young can not prove that this "bookie" really existed and Jason owed a lot of money to other people at the same time, then Chris should not pay.
Absolutely, positively, 100% THIS!

This is not about Chris refusing to pay Jason because of the latter's personal debts to others.

This is about Chris strongly suspecting that he was being freerolled, and this "scammer bookie" actually being Jason himself.

The burden of proof is on Jason now to name this bookie and provide proof that he really paid the guy on behalf of Chris.

Simply saying, "I paid this guy $20k for Chris, and now the guy ran off, so Chris owes me" is a bunch of garbage, unless Jason can prove he really paid the money.

Jason, if this bookie really scammed everyone and disappeared, you should have no problem naming him and providing proof that you paid him. If you can't, Chris has every right in the world to refuse to pay you, because it looks too much like a scam.

If for some reason you are afraid to out this bookie publicly, there are many trustworthy people who you can give the information to privately, and they can post their findings. I will volunteer for this if you want.

If Jason does prove that he paid this bookie at the time he claims (and that the bookie exists), then Chris definitely owes the money, regardless of Jason's other personal problems at the moment.

Right now, Chris should pay nothing and wait for proof.
Kilowatt is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:34 PM   #113
Kilowatt
banned
 
Kilowatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,101
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I will also volunteer to arbitrate if you two want. I am "Dan Druff" (Todd Witteles), in case you don't know.

I am not friends or enemies with either of you, and do not have any biases in the situation.
Kilowatt is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:34 PM   #114
gostatego
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,752
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Hey my name is Josh Kay, I was a semi reg in donkaments for awhile. Now I play locally in FLA and travel occasionally. I was a reg in the HSNL sports betting thread and have bet with Chris and Jason both. I was active in the thread when it all came crashing down by limpcallcallfold.

I have a few things to post that may have some relevance to this.

Once the thread closed, Jason set me up on a site called allplay or something cant remember the exact name. After a few months of betting when I tried to login I got an error message saying to contact the person in charge. I was up $1,000 at this time. Jason told me he had no way of accessing my account but took my word that I was up that amount. He said he would pay me even if his guy was MIA. It took a month or 2 but eventually I got a chase quickpay sent to me. I have a screenshot to show that.

Flashforward to the super bowl Jason texted me about making some vig free bets/props on the game just us 2. We made a bunch of bets that ended up netting me $640. It took some time, a few texts but he paid me that $640 a month after the game. The screenshot also shows that transaction.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I would like to add that during my time betting on 2p2 I made bets with Chris and every transaction we made was settled. There was 1 minor thing that I vaguely remember where a guy bet more than he could afford and he disputed paying me because that guy owed him or something. After a few pms and a few outside people giving their opinion he paid me what he owed. (was less than 1k fwiw)

Would like to end with although it took Jason a little longer than I would have liked for him to pay me, he did make good on all of the balances we ever had. That is not how someone who is freerolling would act.

Josh
gostatego is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:37 PM   #115
SwoopAE
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
SwoopAE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,130
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Kilowatt as usual speaking the truth, why don't the two of you get him or some mod here you can both agree on to arbitrate the situation and you can both provide evidence and have someone neutral reach a logical conclusion based on that evidence
SwoopAE is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:41 PM   #116
sheetsworld
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,742
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gostatego View Post
Hey my name is Josh Kay, I was a semi reg in donkaments for awhile. Now I play locally in FLA and travel occasionally.
Josh
K9 tho.
sheetsworld is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:42 PM   #117
Kilowatt
banned
 
Kilowatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,101
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gostatego View Post
Would like to end with although it took Jason a little longer than I would have liked for him to pay me, he did make good on all of the balances we ever had. That is not how someone who is freerolling would act.
Your bets were for $640-$1000. That's not very much money.

If Jason was really broke and freerolling, then yes, this is exactly how he would act. He would first stall you, then come up with the money so his reputation wouldn't take a hit over a matter of just $640.

I'm not saying Jason was freerolling you, but your story is hardly a ringing endorsement of him.
Kilowatt is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:45 PM   #118
gostatego
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,752
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
Your bets were for $640-$1000. That's not very much money.

If Jason was really broke and freerolling, then yes, this is exactly how he would act. He would first stall you, then come up with the money so his reputation wouldn't take a hit over a matter of just $640.

I'm not saying Jason was freerolling you, but your story is hardly a ringing endorsement of him.
fair enough. I was not taking a side on this matter. Just posting a few things that people may or may not find relevant.

I've never met Jason in real life but all of our dealings have seemed to have been honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
K9 tho.
lol you will never let me forget about that
gostatego is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:52 PM   #119
PSUMike1999
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,118
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
I totally agree there is no "logic" in chris paying me. He doesn't owe me anything. That said, if he and Jason agreed that xxx of Chris's debt to Jason would be discharged by him paying me, I certainly wouldnt argue with that!

Of course, there are others in the same boat who would want a piece of that as well, but hey I am cooler than they are! and i posted first!

Obviously it is a big mess.
Jason sending you lock money is 1 red flag imo.

It seems to me that Jason was getting in over his head and hoping that things would eventually level off. Unfortunately, without specific names from Chris about who told him what along with verifications - it really is next to impossible to determine the truth here.

As the old saying goes, there are 3 sides to this story -

1)Jason's version
2)Chris's version
3)The correct version
PSUMike1999 is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:54 PM   #120
PSUMike1999
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,118
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
I will also volunteer to arbitrate if you two want. I am "Dan Druff" (Todd Witteles), in case you don't know.

I am not friends or enemies with either of you, and do not have any biases in the situation.
On a different note: What the heck happened to you lately???? You played almost every decent NL Tournament a few years ago but haven't heard your name mentioned in years.

Are you still playing tournaments???
PSUMike1999 is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:54 PM   #121
sheetsworld
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,742
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

To get at least my timeline accurate, the first go around with Hason was from 1/25/2012 through 3/2012. (this was the time where I did get paid after he had surgery and my account was cut off bc I am apparently such a sportsbetting boss lol)


The second dates (when I asked if his guy wanted action again and somehoe I didnt think to question it when he said yes) was October-November also 2012.

I actually do not care whether Jason was actually putting bets in through someone else or not.....he is responsible for the money, and he is the first to admit that! He has been stand up with me this whole time telling me the money is good, but it would just take time. I really doubt he "scammed" me or anyone.

Just got in over his head and also was faced with cash flow issues from Chris and maybe others who didn't pay. He was sort of sick of laying out for the winners and having to wait for the losers.

Seems like part of the risk of being an agent/bookie etc but what do I know?

Hopefully this works out for everyone, because I really feel no one meant anything evil here.
sheetsworld is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 04:58 PM   #122
deleted acct
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

It was also pretty scummy of Jason to out Moneymakers debt to his other customers and even go so far as to have them harass him for money that has nothing to do with them. It's none of their business.
 
Old 10-24-2013, 05:06 PM   #123
WillCK
adept
 
WillCK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,162
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

I don't think the timeline matters at all.

You book bets with someone...you lose...you pay....period...end of story.

You book bets with someone...you win...they pay...and if they don't you give them options...then out them when you figure out they are not going to pay.

I don't get the tolerance for not paying a debt just because you *might* have been getting freerolled....*might* doesn't cut it...you won a little...decided to let it ride...then lost it back plus another $15K....you are responsible for that loss.

What does anyone elses bets/debts have to do with it?

IMO...you just pay the guy off...and let him deal with the people that he owes...he doesn't owe YOU...you lost...pay up.

That's like saying..."I financed X item...but the financier went bankrupt...so I am not paying for X"...debt is debt.
WillCK is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:10 PM   #124
moki
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
moki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 8,051
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
To both of you: Sob stories about how you've been scammed in the past don't mean squat. Sorry you made bad business and/or life decisions. Don't use them to curry any sort of favor here. Just makes you look weak and desperate.

To CM: Pay your debts, dood. You don't get to claim any moral high ground by speculating about what might have happened had you won. What, now everyone you want action with is going to have to ask himself "Hm, in addition to the game we're betting on, I need to factor in the odds associated with the Chris thinking I'm good for the money if he wins??? That's not how this works, bud.

To JY: Sounds like you owe some money. Pay it. You don't get to concede that you haven't paid your debts, but claim any moral high ground by saying "I’ve made arrangements with the people that are owed, been in constant contact with them the entire time, inviting them to come speak to me personally in NY." You can rationalize it to yourself that way, but you wagered with money you didn't have (or vouched for people with money you didn't have, same thing.) Whatever restaurant you're choosing to flush your money doesn't mean squat in this situation.

Verdict. Sounds like you deserve each other. CM doesn't pay debt / reverse-freerolls based on what he thinks would have happened. JY bets with money (or "vouches" for others, which is the same thing) that he doesn't have. Neither one of you is really winnings any good-guy points here...you probably succeeded in mutual-assured reputation destruction though.
Sums it up pretty well.

Chris Moneymaker should pay his debt; whether he *might* or might not have been getting freerolled is irrelevant.

Similarly, Jason need to pay his debts as well, mitigating circumstances notwithstanding.
moki is offline  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:14 PM   #125
Kilowatt
banned
 
Kilowatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,101
re: moneymaker vs jason young (resolved - see post 497 & 503)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUMike1999 View Post
On a different note: What the heck happened to you lately???? You played almost every decent NL Tournament a few years ago but haven't heard your name mentioned in years.

Are you still playing tournaments???
Don't want to hijack this thread, but I was never a big tournament player. Always put the vast majority of my poker focus onto limit hold 'em cash.

I would play a handful of NL tournies at the WSOP (including the Main), and for a little while played a few others in California and Nevada, but it just wasn't really my thing.

I finished a disappointing 5th this year in the WSOP $5k Limit, after having the chip lead with 12 left, and again briefly at the final table. But that's limit poker for you.

Also have had 3 disappointing years in a row at the WSOP Main where I make it through 85-88% of the field and bust.

Anyway, that's all for my recent poker history. Let's get back on topic!
Kilowatt is offline  

Closed Thread
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive