veil, if you're actually not a troll, then you are one sad, delusional dude. just putting that out there. i've now put you on ignore so i won't be tilted by your stupidity or waste time trying to explain the gaping flaws in every attempt at analysis you make. some people will just never get it. thanks for the laughs though

yep, it's a pretty big call imo, ivey's hand is roughly equal to 1 pair once ziig pots the river. i'm not sure what ivey can put him on that he beats other than the 98, unless ziig made some ambitious double-float intending to bluff river. then again ziig can't represent many hands either except slowplayed sets, maybe KT, maaybe J9 if he peels one with a gutshot + over IP to the flop raise. seems like a pretty interesting spot

i also feel like ziigmund should have bet a little smaller but ivey was probably going to own his soul and call regardless. i was surprised how quickly he called too. that guy plays good

poor illari doesn't run very good on TV (not that he's played great either). he handles himself like a pro though. i can't help but think if howard was stuck 300k you'd be able to tell just by watching him. which is kinda funny since howard is worth way more than ziigmund

From last nights game, ivey had 2 pair, board had a pretty safe texture, but still do you think there was any way Ivey would have mucked it?

when know-it-alls get confronted and lose an argument they always run away. It's almost sad. Funny how not once did blanco give a decent response as to why PA can't have a wide range there a fair amount of the time.


btw for those who want to watch illari play goodish and run okay - watch The Game.

18k in pot Ivey bets 17k Ilari calls with open ended with one to come. Is this really right with implied odds and so on isnt the bet 2 much chase with one to come. I really dont understand any of the things Zig is doing but maybe that is the reason he is so succefull.

Also 50kr river bluff isnt that huge arent they playing 50k prop for each flop lol.

nope, incorrect call, but maybe he thought he could take the hand away on good rivers or maybe he just thought "*** it"

no. only thing zIIG can represent is k10

As we all know Ivey doesnt make any hero folds. He really never masterminds any hands as i seen just gambles and playes his hand agressive and well.

Hero fold?
It was more of a hero call, only beats a bluff.

edit: nevermind, thought it went bet-raise on the river.
Guess Ivey beats some hands that are played for value.

Please stop. He gave a fine response, you just seem to be reading what you want to read.

I was thinking the exact same thing about him actually. He thought I said Howard had a huge range. Blanco probably doesn't even read all my post, so no wonder he has no clue in this argument.

Please direct me to this fine response you speak of.

Phil Ivey greatest poker player of all time thats it just had to say it.

i don't think ziigs bluff their works against anyone, amybe howard. the range he's repping is just too narrow. plus he has a super lag image (even though he hasnt really played like one). still a good call form ivey though as he pretty much has a bluff catcher

also, was that a value raise by durrr with Q9? seemed really really thin to me. i guess he might get called by worse 2 pair though

Yes this is the way Durrr seems to play we mortal fishes dont quite understand these thin value bets or raises on river but he sure likes to do them. I would assume 99% of all cash games players would just call that river bet but i could be wrong.

I think zig is trying to rep QT and KT the most. Wasn't bad, because the huge turn call repped his hand quite big.

durr is raising the Q9 because the hand was checked down so his hand is good in his mind so often that calling would be kinda weak. It looks very likely that eli has a hand around the KQ range - and since durrs hand is so under-repped and has a bluffy image, eli may bluffcatch with a 1 pair type hand.

hmm watching the hand I was pretty positive he was raising. I'm raising there also a high amount of the time.

Mark the calendars, guys, Veil sad something that wasn't even remotely laughable. It had to happen some time, like the AA vs. AA hand.

Durr's hand was under-repped, so raise-fold was the right line for a player with his image with that hand.

I feel like I always give very good insight to these forums. Please don't use your exaggerated attacks on me. There is not one thing I've said that is easily challenged.

The thing is that the people who have to suffer through your insight generally don't agree with that assessment.

Honestly, and this is not meant to be a cute shot at you, the things you say are not easily challenged because they're just so out there that you don't even know where to begin. It's easy to point a flaw in an argument that has only a single one; it's hard to do that when the argument consists entirely of a very complicated web of countless flaws. At that point I give up, and instead try to think of a clever putdown.

For example, how do you even respond to a suggestion that PA could call a 4-bet from Lederer with 22 out of position with a low stack-to-pot ratio? You can't, you just have to laugh and move on.

Allow me to respond with a very easy way to look at it.

Assumption 1: Let's say PA is putting Howard on KK+ and AK.

We have: 6kk hands, 6 aa hands and 16 ak hands against an unknown PA hand. As you can hopefully see, AK is the fav hand to have here at 4:3.

Assumption 2: 9.5 to 1 is not a 'low stack to pot ratio.' Flopping a set is a lot less than this. If PA feels Howard has KK+, it isn't unreasonable to assume he can stack him a high amount of the time.

Assumption 3: PA knows these basics odds and that it would be correct to call with any pair including deuces.

Assumption 4: PA believes Howard's most likely hand is probably AK - so not only is his immediate odds great at 2:1, but it would be strange to fold a hand with easily the correct equity, like 56suited, let alone fold eq. Despite being oop. For the record, 56suited is 33% to win against KK+,AK checking it down.

Assumption 5: If PA knows your tiny range - he is going to call with a wide range with good immediate and implied odds because he is going to be getting it in good and folding out worse hands a very high amount of the time.

Assumption 6: The fact that this takes place in ep is almost irrelevant. It is 6max so I would hardly even call this early positioning. PA can limp and reraise with a wide range of hands utg against anyone, especially with dead money in the pot. In fact I think he's more likely to do it with something like a suited connector than he is with KK+.

good level.. now stfu

Nice play by Lederer taking advantage of his image and making a squeeze. If Durrr did that it'd have got more love.

I'm not saying he always has a wide range. Just that if I get every single hand not in the JJ+ and AK range , then it's plain and simple that PA is turning up with some of them a pretty good amount of the time.

Especially with the way the hand was played postflop and because howard has AA and because of the K on there. It's more likely PA has a hand not in the JJ+and AK range (from howards perspective). Quite clearly actually.

Ok, so far so good.
OK, so PA flops a set. Too bad Howard "is a favorite to have AK" most of the time and needs to hit an A or K to stack off. In retrospect, it was kind of stupid to call when you only have implied odds if you stack Lederer every single time you hit a set, and never lose or have Lederer get a bad flop, wasn't it?
PA may also be aware that there is post-flop play in NLHE.
NLHE would be an easy game if hands were checked down often.
OK, so PA makes an obvious call with 22. Flop comes J84. How do you play the hand? Does Howard have AK or AA?
The fact that it happens to PA when he is out of position on Howard, on the other hand, is very relevant.