Scott,

a suggestion(s) on the Bad Beat:

Mini Bad Beat-change to 20k,reduce the qualifying hand to Aces Full of Queens beaten,change the breakdown to 40%(losing hand),20%(winning hand),40%(table share),fund by changing Bad Beat back to 2k per day.The table share would be 1k per person,4k to winning hand,8k to losing hand and would hit more frequently,spreading the money around making players and dealers happy.Add in upping the royal flush to 1k.

Any comments anyone?

Had a friend tonight playing the 2/5 plo game. Apparently he 'loses' a hand where his nut flush gets counterfeited by a running board pair. He tables his hand and dealer pushes the pot to the other player. As he walks away he replays hand in head and realized he actually hit a running full house larger than what the other guy has.
Comes back and alerts the floor who review tape and indeed see that he did actually have the winning hand.
Floor allows game to continue being played as this is going down and the guy who 'won' the pot ends up losing $1200 or so back to other players at the table as this tape is being reviewed.
Once they alert him that he actually lost the pot and had to refund the money to my friend, he starts pocketing chips from his stack to make so he only would pay less.
Floor rules all he has to pay is his stack infront of him allowing him to keep the chips he put into his pocket as well.

Can someone explain to me how this makes any sense, and shouldnt hard rock be responsible for the $1200 + whatever he put into his pocket to be paying my friend? The hand was clearly tabled, and verified on their security cameras... Another great ruling at the Tampa Hard Rock boys and girls..

Thank God they only allow the most well-qualified dealers back there, eh?

Yeh besides the point though. We've already established the caliber of dealers at hard rock. The question here is does he have a legal case viable toward Hard Rock/Dealer/Player to be payed the money he legitimately won in the hand? Not just what they made that player pay...

I posted my full reply in the B&M thread you made as I saw it first. But cliffs of my opinion are that the THR rules state it is the players responsibility to ID winners with the dealers only assisting. And appeals must be made prior to next hand starting. He's lucky he got anything back in this situation and IMO certainly has no case agaist the THR for what was ultimately his error.

"Cards speak" but their official voice is the voice of the player who holds them. While dealers and even other players should speak up if player is wrong, if they don't catch the mistake the responsibility is the players.

Floor comes over and says 'pay this guy' so the illegitimate winner goes south FIRST, then hands over chips? How can he do that with the floor standing right there--and how does your friend not speak up once he sees the guy start pocketing chips?

Something's a bit off here. Did you witness this happen or just get the story afterwards?

Florida courts don't have jurisdiction over what takes place on Indian lands. There is no legal recourse.

Ok got more details on the sitaution.
After he lost the hand he started to walk away and as walking away he realized what had just happened.

He states he told the supervisor before the next hand even gets dealt, and as he turns to another mutual friend to tell them what had just happened they are dealing another hand.

from his facebook. This is what happens next as instructed by the floor to the player in question.

" He says "ok, put $1,100 on side" I turn around and was explaining to a friend what happened, I turn back around and the game is continuing. I asked how could game continue, what if guy loses some of my $. And as though by fate, he loses over $1000 next hand. Supervisor comes back, says I was correct. Tells guy to pay me. He refuses, security is called. Guy wants to see tapes. I argue with the sup who allowed play to continue. Guy tries to walk past security, they stop him. While Iv filled out my info to a manager, I look back at the guys chips in front, only 7 blacks r there.. 11 were clearly put on the side when the terrible ruling took place for game to continue. He was pocketing chips to not pay me full. I told manager said no chips were moved. They empty his pockets and no chips found. Inevitably, I'm handed chips in front of $1170, am still owed $1800 . After turning down a couple free dinner at Council Oak, I was told to go home and was told to call Paul Mollo this afternoon to "see what we can do".

His hand must have went into the muck if he was walking away. Not sure how the supervisor could possibly say the other player owes him money.

this

I'll spare the entire story as I have posted it in this thread before, but I had a similar situation happen, except the pot was mistakenly pushed to me and action was stopped before the next hand. I agreed to pay whatever was in the pot but they refused to go watch the tapes and the dealer guessed it "was a $250-$300 pot". A certain Scottish gentleman ordered me to pay $300. When I refused and stated that I would pay the correct amount if they'd go watch the tapes, security came and held my arms at my side while the supervisor counted out $300 in front of me and gave it to the other player involved.

I learned that night that strong armed robbery by supervisors and security is completely legal on Seminole property. I am amazed that this is the first time something like that has been brought to light again, and somewhat relieved that they at least had the decency to go look at the tapes this time.

In both cases, the dealer is solely responsible for the pot, and a supervisor cannot, and should not, legally be able to take money from a player, ever.

I heard an interesting story about seminole security last month. I'm at the table, and another player is on the phone trying to link up with friends who were supposed to come and give him a ride home. He has 2-3 short calls with them, like "where are you" and "why arent you here".

He then states that what happened is that his friends were at the entrance, and that security was threatening to arrest them for "being 18 and trying to get into the casino when you have to be 21". They told security that they were going to the poker room where you only have to be 18. Security told them they were in big trouble, but for $50 they would forget about it and let them in. Of course they refused, and now were telling their friend playing poker to meet them outside because security wouldnt let them in.

This was on a busy Sat night, and the way the player was talking, it seemed completely believeable to me. So the guy got up and left.

Not to say this is correct or the way things should be or w/e, but this hand is a pretty good example of how important it might be to tip decently and maintain a reasonably friendly relationship with the floor/staff. I have no idea who the OP or Villain is, but I have to imagine that a friendly floor or dealer would be more sympathetic and pause the game immediately, for example, rather than keep dealing.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using 2+2 Forums

how about separating limit and NL bad beat JPs

Are you serious?

So if we don't tip "decently" and if we are not friendly with the THR staff then we shouldn't expect the games to be run fairly or objectively?

OP must be a dealer or staff member at THR...

Warning to THR players, OP says that if you don't tip "decently" and if you are not friendly to supervisory staff don't expect the games to be run with integrity!!!

My first sentence was literally, "I'm not saying this is right or the way things should be"...

But it's basic human nature. It's like calling any random company's technical/customer support line, and asking for help politely and being friendly, vs being an angry/mean/nitty cheapskate or douchebag (believe me, there are plenty of angry nits in this cardroom who berate dealers and floors constantly). Even if you are technically correct, it's still the difference between average/begrudging service, and above-average/helpful service.

Personally, I fall into the $1-per-pot camp, and almost never chitchat with floors or staff. I've never had to ask for any help like stopping a game to review a hand and going to the tapes, but I understand that if it comes up, wouldn't it be better for me if I was known as a reasonable/polite player rather than just some angry/unreasonable tightass (not saying the OP is this at all, just making an extreme comparison)?

Players should tip based on their own personal beliefs and treat the dealers and staff courteously just as a matter of being a decent person. I've personally been told many by regs who I am familiar with I tip too much, but I don't expect any favors from the staff.

There should be an absolute expectation by the players that the games are run fairly and with objectively when it comes to the decision making by the dealers/staff with no bias whether a player tips "well" or is sugary nice to the staff or not. Anything else is completely unacceptable...that's why we pay rake to play at THR.

I was at the same table. I had no reason to doubt what he was saying.

People who are quoting this and then being upset are indeed missing the message. Again, dumbluck is not saying this is correct, just that it is the way it is. Anyone who doubts that is living with their head in the sand.

Yes, we pay rake, and the game should be honest, fair, etc., and all rules enforced equally and fairly by competent dealers. But it's not, and they're not. Sorry to burst some folks' bubbles, but welcome to reality.

But think about it: We (as a state), gave the Seminoles the right the run a hugely profitable business as essentially a unregulated entity. The laws don't protect you - and you have no recourse.

They will do what is in the best interests of the business all the time, because they know we have no effective avenues to challenge them. Sometimes that will happen to be what is in the best interests of the players, sometimes it won't be. Just realize that this is what you implicitly sign up for when you play there.

Expecting anything else is akin to going to a whorehouse, and then when you leave saying "You know, I just didn't feel loved..."

+1, and FYP

while i agree with the sentiment you guys are portraying... nothing in the original post made me think the guy was a bad tipper or ill-regarded by the floor or dealers.

in fact, according to the post, the "villain" tried to sneak out and was stopped by security. if anyone has a negative light shining on them i would think it would be him. in any case, i don't know if play should have been stopped or not... but checking to see if the guy was rat-holing blackchips after i think should be a no brainer after they've already started examining the whole hand.

i'll be making 3-4 snowbird trips this year. first one end of october. see you guys there!

Is there any promo for October anyone?

Nothing on website, but not sure there ever is. Heard a dealer make reference to some high hands for October, but no details.

Guess they don't want the word to get out. That might attract people to the room.

Just noticed on Bravo that its high hands up to $1200 per hour starting October 6th. Anyone have the details?

yes this is correct, various different hands like 4 of a kinds and straight flushes. basically hands that limit players and Omaha players make and NL players have a harder time making. sigh.... Also on the table that wins the high hand, right after the hand, (heresay) everyone at the table picks a card and the highest card wins 100.00. This info was provided by brushes and one crappy supervisor yesterday.

at least the tourney schedule is improving with a 100k guarantee 125.00 buy in similar to Isle. It would be nice if the tourney schedule on Bravo was updated though. Who is responsible for this scott?