Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views and gossip.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-26-2020, 03:51 PM   #12376
inmyrav
old hand
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,641
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Rice View Post
Like I said, it was an oversimplification. Questions could have been asked on direct examination that established that the poker community or his opponents now think him a cheat, and that warrants awarding the plaintiff damages. If his lawyers want to argue that the plaintiff has no way of knowing what his opponent's think (the point of the objection you raised), then they should avoid suggesting the opposite on direct. Otherwise they have opened the door for the defense to go there.

In the Postle case, they basically claim he was hurt financially because he now has a reputation as a cheater. So they have to go there to win on that point. If they has just filed slander per se and libel per se, maybe they could have avoided whether or not Postle knows what his opponents think.

The plaintiff presents his case first. So the defense will know what they're claiming, what evidence they have, how effective they were in their presentation, etc., and will adjust accordingly. Although most of this will be hashed out in the discovery phase.
they did file per se, iirc.
inmyrav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 03:59 PM   #12377
inmyrav
old hand
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,641
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Rice View Post
Like I said, it was an oversimplification. Questions could have been asked on direct examination that established that the poker community or his opponents now think him a cheat, and that warrants awarding the plaintiff damages. If his lawyers want to argue that the plaintiff has no way of knowing what his opponent's think (the point of the objection you raised), then they should avoid suggesting the opposite on direct. Otherwise they have opened the door for the defense to go there.

In the Postle case, they basically claim he was hurt financially because he now has a reputation as a cheater. So they have to go there to win on that point. If they has just filed slander per se and libel per se, maybe they could have avoided whether or not Postle knows what his opponents think.

The plaintiff presents his case first. So the defense will know what they're claiming, what evidence they have, how effective they were in their presentation, etc., and will adjust accordingly. Although most of this will be hashed out in the discovery phase.
I am not a lawyer, but iirc they did file per se. I expect his case will be, "they called me a crook, I'm not a crook, book 'em Dano."
inmyrav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 04:05 PM   #12378
George Rice
old hand
 
George Rice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: A few clicks west of AC
Posts: 1,690
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyrav View Post
I am not a lawyer, but iirc they did file per se. I expect his case will be, "they called me a crook, I'm not a crook, book 'em Dano."
Yes they did, but not only that. The other claims will require them to prove damages.
George Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 04:47 PM   #12379
inmyrav
old hand
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,641
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
The sheer volume of legal costs compared to the comparatively small damages that could be won make this a case where a quiet mutual dropping of the action would be best all round, as Postle is the lowest form of poker life, but even so he is not worth risking potential bankruptcy over, and from his point of view he has a moral victory that nothing has ever been proven against him.

It is all so fascinating, as there is not a single reputable figure who has come out in support of him, and his legal team seem to have minimal visible credentials in defamation cases, or understanding poker, whereas the wide range of people he has attacked have a massive support and knowledge network. I estimate it 90% likely he would win a case, just because those attacking him were so swayed by emotion they overlooked the need to get evidence to support their accusations.
I agree That too many people have already been hurt and all sides should walk away. No one should face anything more than ridicule for what they write on the internets.

If the suit is even real.
inmyrav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 04:50 PM   #12380
inmyrav
old hand
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,641
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Rice View Post
Yes they did, but not only that. The other claims will require them to prove damages.
Yeah but that's the pea shooter, not the cannon. per se is the cannon.
inmyrav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 06:57 PM   #12381
George Rice
old hand
 
George Rice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: A few clicks west of AC
Posts: 1,690
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by inmyrav View Post
Yeah but that's the pea shooter, not the cannon. per se is the cannon.
I don't understand your point. Including all those other claims is where the big money is, potentially.
George Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 08:08 PM   #12382
deuceblocker
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2,255
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Maybe the defamation prevented him from making a living in crooked cards games.

Is he a poker player or a card sharp? He said he was one of the biggest winners on UB.

Does he know how to play? Can he beat an honest game? On the games one the stream, he didn't 3! premium hands in a very loose game. Although he won big anyway, that cost him tremendous EV.
deuceblocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 09:26 PM   #12383
George Rice
old hand
 
George Rice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: A few clicks west of AC
Posts: 1,690
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuceblocker View Post
On the games one the stream, he didn't 3! premium hands in a very loose game. Although he won big anyway, that cost him tremendous EV.
Are you suggesting it's almost as if the cards of the other players hadn't registered yet and he wanted to wait for that information and to see the flop before committing one way or the other? Couldn't be.
George Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2020, 09:31 PM   #12384
deuceblocker
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2,255
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Rice View Post
Are you suggesting it's almost as if the cards of the other players hadn't registered yet and he wanted to wait for that information and to see the flop before committing one way or the other? Couldn't be.
Even if he knew the hole cards, it would be better to build the pot with a premium hand.
deuceblocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 03:15 PM   #12385
jjjou812
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,551
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Non-Update: I looked at the docket today. No further activity since the oct 8 entry of a blank summons form.
jjjou812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 06:05 PM   #12386
ejames209
adept
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: 6bet me's no. 1 fan's no. 1 fan
Posts: 1,144
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

got my settlement check in the mail woohoo
ejames209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 06:31 PM   #12387
PLIKITYPLAK
veteran
 
PLIKITYPLAK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,512
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejames209 View Post
got my settlement check in the mail woohoo
sell out
PLIKITYPLAK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2020, 06:54 PM   #12388
ejames209
adept
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: 6bet me's no. 1 fan's no. 1 fan
Posts: 1,144
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PLIKITYPLAK View Post
sell out
you're not wrong!
ejames209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 02:10 PM   #12389
executiveauto
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Boston
Posts: 155
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I hope Postle collects from everyone involved. Especially from polk and ingram. There should be consequences for destroying a persons reputation and ability to generate income with no proof. they all went to far imo. I hope they all pay.
executiveauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 02:30 PM   #12390
Jay Why
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lundun
Posts: 945
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by executiveauto View Post
I hope Postle collects from everyone involved. Especially from polk and ingram. There should be consequences for destroying a persons reputation and ability to generate income with no proof. they all went to far imo. I hope they all pay.
They did not destroy his reputation, or remove his ability to generate income.
Jay Why is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 02:40 PM   #12391
persianpunisher
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,416
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by executiveauto View Post
I hope Postle collects from everyone involved. Especially from polk and ingram. There should be consequences for destroying a persons reputation and ability to generate income with no proof. they all went to far imo. I hope they all pay.
How are there still "Postle is innocent" trolls? wtf
persianpunisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 04:04 PM   #12392
Wilbury Twist
Pooh-Bah
 
Wilbury Twist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 4977 miles from Kells
Posts: 5,331
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
How are there still "Postle is innocent" trolls? wtf
The join dates of such people tell me they're either friends of Postle himself, or people who missed out on the year-plus of research done by dozens of people.

But yeah, it's pretty insane. Figure that it's one of the few things on which both Doug Polk and Daniel Negreanu agree, so being firmly on the side of Postle being clean puts a person pretty far into the weeds.
Wilbury Twist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 06:43 PM   #12393
Jay Why
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lundun
Posts: 945
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

The problem all along was that people confused - and still confuse - suspicion as being as strong as actual evidence. Marle Cordeiro's case was rejected on jurisdiction grounds, but when one reads the case against Postle, there is suspicion, but no evidence. The accusation "She further alleges that defendant suspiciously folded a strong hand, allegedly because he was aware that plaintiff’s hand was stronger." is such a weak example, as he would doubtless counter he had a read on her, and it feels more like clutching at straws to build a case, rather than being a decisive example of his cheating.

While playing in these live games, defendant won more money than any other participant. Plaintiff alleges that defendant was being fed the other players’ hands, apparently through his cell phone device, which defendant kept between his legs during these games. From July 18, 2018, to September 29, 2019, defendant allegedly recorded net winnings in more than 94% of the games in which he played, becoming an in-house celebrity.

Plaintiff alleges that defendant was able to achieve these results by engaging in a pattern and practice of using one or more wire communication mechanisms to defraud his opponents by gaining knowledge of the other players’ cards. Plaintiff has participated in a Stones live poker game with defendant at least once. She further alleges that defendant suspiciously folded a strong hand, allegedly because he was aware that plaintiff’s hand was stronger.


So although the few defenders of Postle (notable by their average single figure number of 2+2 posts) have no credibility, they do actually have a point, as like it or not, to date there has been no proven cheating by Postle, and his accusers are still not certain how he cheated.

Here in the UK people learned the hard way that one should preface accusations with the word "alleged", that is something that would be good practice for his accusers to follow, as at the moment he has effectively gagged public debate about the cheating allegations against him.
Jay Why is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 08:56 PM   #12394
cboevey
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 127
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
Here in the UK people learned the hard way that one should preface accusations with the word "alleged", that is something that would be good practice for his accusers to follow, as at the moment he has effectively gagged public debate about the cheating allegations against him.
For journalists reporting on allegations made by others, they make use of the word alleged to prevent themselves being accused of making the allegations themselves. If you make an allegation about someone, it's not like using the word "alleged" is a get out of jail free card, you will still need to substantiate the allegations or the injured party might have cause to come after you.
cboevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 09:57 PM   #12395
aoFrantic
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aoFrantic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,494
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Why View Post
The problem all along was that people confused - and still confuse - suspicion as being as strong as actual evidence. Marle Cordeiro's case was rejected on jurisdiction grounds, but when one reads the case against Postle, there is suspicion, but no evidence. The accusation "She further alleges that defendant suspiciously folded a strong hand, allegedly because he was aware that plaintiff’s hand was stronger." is such a weak example, as he would doubtless counter he had a read on her, and it feels more like clutching at straws to build a case, rather than being a decisive example of his cheating.

While playing in these live games, defendant won more money than any other participant. Plaintiff alleges that defendant was being fed the other players’ hands, apparently through his cell phone device, which defendant kept between his legs during these games. From July 18, 2018, to September 29, 2019, defendant allegedly recorded net winnings in more than 94% of the games in which he played, becoming an in-house celebrity.

Plaintiff alleges that defendant was able to achieve these results by engaging in a pattern and practice of using one or more wire communication mechanisms to defraud his opponents by gaining knowledge of the other players’ cards. Plaintiff has participated in a Stones live poker game with defendant at least once. She further alleges that defendant suspiciously folded a strong hand, allegedly because he was aware that plaintiff’s hand was stronger.


So although the few defenders of Postle (notable by their average single figure number of 2+2 posts) have no credibility, they do actually have a point, as like it or not, to date there has been no proven cheating by Postle, and his accusers are still not certain how he cheated.

Here in the UK people learned the hard way that one should preface accusations with the word "alleged", that is something that would be good practice for his accusers to follow, as at the moment he has effectively gagged public debate about the cheating allegations against him.
UK law and American law on this is miles apart. You should really know that basic fact before making these kinds of posts.

Marle not knowing UK is as unsurprising as her liking Alex Jones though, not sad at all she lost, even to Postle. Guess she can't dump another 6 figures in high stakes games when they could barely beat 2/5.

Last edited by aoFrantic; 10-31-2020 at 10:04 PM.
aoFrantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2020, 11:31 PM   #12396
TimM
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TimM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,538
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Everything is evidence, especially when you quantify it. Not talking legally here, but scientifically. Feelings like "the winrate is too high" or "that's an odd fold" are reasons for suspicion.

Someday, hopefully, the exact win rate will be quantified and compared, along with the sample size and the standard deviation for MP alleged godmode sessions, MP non-godmode, and all the other players. That's evidence, but just one piece. Add in other evidence like behavior at the table, certain action frequencies, and you can build a case. Lots of people were convicted or found responsible for things without knowing exactly how they did it, but it takes a lot to do that. The Marle complaint is ridiculously inadequate if that's all it was.

I'd also like to see an analysis of how often he was dealt premium hands, how often he hit the flop, hit draws, etc. I'm expecting these to be not terribly out of line, as the videos do not show him being on a card heater, which is what most non-players will think of when they say maybe he was just lucky, that's why he won so much.
TimM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 12:06 AM   #12397
Wilbury Twist
Pooh-Bah
 
Wilbury Twist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 4977 miles from Kells
Posts: 5,331
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimM View Post
Everything is evidence, especially when you quantify it. Not talking legally here, but scientifically. Feelings like "the winrate is too high" or "that's an odd fold" are reasons for suspicion.
Yeah, this. The results are evidence.

An extreme (and stylized) hypothetical would be someone offering an even-money bet that he can flip a coin 30 times and get 30 tails. You snap call, only to watch as he pulls off the feat right before your eyes. You may not have any idea how he's doing it, but the outcome by itself would be evidence of shenanigans, simply because it's almost literally a billion-to-one shot.

Of course, what Postle accomplished is not nearly as mathematically improbable, but it was still unlikely enough for knowledgeable poker people to look crook-eyed at it. I say it all the time, it's why experienced poker players are certain he was cheating, and the doubters tend to be either donks or poker muggles.
Wilbury Twist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 12:16 AM   #12398
EternalRaise
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 39
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

No news about Galfond?

Man I hate these marketing stunts. No reason to for him to put himself to this, but when he did then no news is really bad conduct.
EternalRaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 12:21 AM   #12399
TimM
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TimM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,538
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

His company is named in the defamation suit. Of course he is quiet now.

The good news is now he has every incentive to quietly continue work on the stats.
TimM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2020, 12:43 AM   #12400
EternalRaise
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 39
Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimM View Post
His company is named in the defamation suit. Of course he is quiet now.

The good news is now he has every incentive to quietly continue work on the stats.
Have he said so?
EternalRaise is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive