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Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT*

01-25-2014 , 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigsaw
So, you just want to take his word for when the counterfeits were introduced to the event?
+ALOT

I'd say the burden of proof is going to be on Borgata to prove they were no fake chips, but it wont come to that because of simple math. rough estimates on my part but close enough for my point.

~ 2500 unique entries

~ 2250 didn't cash and have a claim

~ some group of those will clearly be in tourney after chips were known to be in play. lets say 50%.

~ 1,125 players are in limbo where maybe the fake chips were in play and maybe not

1,125 * $560 = $635,625 is estimate of their exposure that might be in dispute.

others can fine tune the math if you want, but the point will be the same...

Borgata;s decision is something around $600,000 or class action lawsuit + horrible PR + damaged brand at least in Poker world and maybe more

You be the Borgata CEO, whats the call? They are one the best brands in Poker, and the best Casino brand in AC, I doubt that a company with Borgata;s brand and reputation is going to risk damaging that over ~600K
.

Point of reference Borgata Total Casino Win for Dec was $44,000,000. that's not profit but total win, akin to top line revenue in a non casino world.

Finally the decision might not even be theirs to make. DGE will have some say on that. Regardless what DGE says, I believe Borgata will do the right thing.

If for some reason they don't, I predict PokerStars will step in pay the players as nothing more than sign of good will They already have 800M invested in good will, whats another 600K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigsaw
It's a sculpture of limitations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq8gfaFqFpI
nice link. forgot about that scene, many common, funny things in life can be linked to some scene in the greatest show ever on TV, the continual misuse of statute vs statue is just one.

Jerry. turned out to be very very bad man

also..."one in the same" vs the correct "one and the same" I learned tonight. thanks to Professor Bobo

NVG just keeps on delivering !!!

Last edited by PTLou; 01-25-2014 at 10:22 PM.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by APokerJoker2
I live right down the street from that place the arrests were made. how come I cant find a poker game ever?
I'm racking my brain to figure out how these two sentences are related
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsnapzach
LOL if only Day 1 C players are refunded I'll never play another tournament at Borgata.
your a modern day rosa parks.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTLou
+ALOT

~ 2500 unique entries
where did you get this info from ?
if re-entries are going to continue to run, this info should be more accessible IMHO.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyAggassi
Borgata has always run a really good room so they will probably end up giving refunds even though what happened is not their fault.

This guy is going to get a big time punishment so don't expect a bunch more of these scandals.

People should look at it as 10 years of these big tournaments without a big scandal. Just tweak the mode a little bit and everything is fine.
The Borgata is certainly at fault here. The system they put together for this tournament series clearly has many flaws. Fortunately for us, this would-be thief is an idiot and was unsuccessful in taking advantage of the unqualified dealers and ultra generic tournament chips. The flaws still exist, and more intelligent opportunists will exploit them and go undetected. Who would be surprised if people have already stashed away some of the higher denomination chips from smaller buy-in tourneys only to add them to their stack in the main event?

Look, you wanna play blind man? Go walk with the shepherd. But me, my eyes are wide ****ing open.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 11:10 PM
glad to see the NJDGE is going to prosecute this before the scripture of limitations runs out
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 11:10 PM
In absence of nothing better to do I am going to make me a post here that will be tl;dr to 99% in NVG, but IDGAS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamEdwardsPros
What a strange coincidence, the chip on the right of my now infamous chip picture was a fake. I snapped the picture of the guy I got it from. This person coincidently busted me from the event calling off 29bb pre with 88 and winning the flip. After busting, I tweeted from @7thecho about the incident. Odds have to be astronomical.
You seem to be pretty sure the odd colored chip is fake and part of the T1mm+ of fakes.

But them you seem to recant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamEdwardsPros
My sources said there were only 4 of the super chromed looking Home Depot chips. My guess is to divert attention away from his fake Chinese knock offs. As far as free rolls from the top 27... As nice as this sounds, this is not what I am after. I wish this guy didn't call me all the way down to bust my 66bb to 10bb with 10s on the sickest board but it makes sense now. After building my chips back to 36bb he finished me off cold calling my 4 bet with 88s. He won the flip of course and I busted 389th for peanuts. So yes, all of that sucks! But I feel awful knowing my picture could prevent some good people from getting to finish this TOURNAMENT.
I do appreciate all the positive responses, and I already received a 10 point infraction by posting that I wanted this guy to slip and fall, so I can't even do that. Violated rules that I can't even find on my mobile app. However now that I know this is the guy that busted me, Im willing to take another 10 points in hopes he slips in prison!!
TeamEdwards, Who are your sources? If there were only 4 of these in play, can we not deduce that that 200 chips that were introduced were NOT spray painted looking, so therefore much harder to spot, even perhaps nearly impossible because Borgata had 3 different sets in play? Therefore, the reports of Borgata being unaware until being contacted by Harrah's would make sense.

We can surmise this not only from your "source", but also from the discovery of this ALIBABA listing that most assuredly has no spray paint look, but are actually scary because the quality is so high (In fact, based on hundreds of similar products, these chips in the listing could be manufactured by the official maker of PCA chips and siphoned off to the ALIBABA gray-market)



Let's address this photo:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerochill
Yup! Not sure if this helps but here's a zoom in:

As I touched on above, I find it much more likely that those are not the spray painted chips. I believe that photo only reflects the nuances that would appear in a photo from a tournament that is using three separate, distinctive chip sets of various age and appearance.

I could be wrong but I can't see someone having so many spray painted chips without other players noticing.

In fact, and I don't mean to call him out, but TeamEdwards guy may multiple posts and tweets about passing around the weird chip and it being taken out of play. Ask yourself, would YOU pass around a chip as being so bizarre and ****ed up if they guy you won it from had dozens in his stack? TeamEdwards guy, was that not your photo as well?

You were at his table. You are suggesting that the ONLY spray painted chip to hit the felt from that big stack was so odd that it was passed around and taken out of play. This would suggest that not even a single other chip in that stack being classified as counterfeit by everyone ever hit the table before or after that? How do you introduce 200+ spray paint chips but only splash a single one into a pot?

Clearly, your source was right - there were only a few of those silver chips and therefore the photograph of his stack being cited as proof is not irrelevant to the 200+ counterfeit chips. If those were silver chips you would have looked like a dummy for passing yours around the table and having it removed from play.

I think you need to address this either by stating your source or explaining why you passed a chip around that was so prevalent in his stack and at your table. Please clarify.

Does this mean they are not incompetent as so many have suggested? ex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipKatcher
So did tab count down his stack at the end of day 1c and touch the fake chips and not realize sooner?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aggo
Whoever counted him down and did not realize his chips were fake should be reprimanded at the minimum
Well, they were not have been incompetent visually if indeed the counterfeits were not the spray-painted grey chips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxRhino
I dont understand why the fake chips look so outrageously different from normal 5ks. I guess it has to do with the "secret" angle to the story?
Digital photos are notorious for completely distorting subtle lighting differences that occur in the spectum between what our eye sees and what the camera photographs. The best way to see this is for you to take a coin out of your pocket and snap a digital pic. You will never get an accurate portrayal of the REAL, 100% unadulterated human eye match unless you have a $4,000 cam and 10 years experience.

Caveat/pre-excuse just in case ---> This entire post is based on the assumption that the silver chips numbered only a few AND that the plethora of colors in the photo of his stack are based on 3 sets being in play, not on them being fakes.

Regarding Borgota Staff -Were they incompetent by not realizing the final counts did not match the total that should have been in play? I don't think so because I have personally never seen players held hostage until all bag and tags were completed and reconciled. That is totally impractical, obviously.

Even overnight reconciliation would be ineffective in a tournament with re-entries and huge fields because the certainty of human error in the bag and tag is 100%. With all the human error involved with several hundred players bagging and tagging and moving on to the next day, what if an overnight reconciliation was not perfect? Do you suspend play the next day while security reviews every bag and tag and handwriting experts debate questionable entries on the bags?

Of course not! The event can't pause while hanging chad type debates and issues are resolved. Factor in the press release that stated the chips were introduced gradually. Do we know what the actual variance was the first day? Was the difference even consequential considering the field size at that point?

Lets step forward a day or two where many would believe a proper count would have been manageable. At this point, there is still possibly human error from many sources that still include bag tag errors, cashier errors on buy-in audits, floor errors resulting from re-entry accounting etc. So it all boils down to variance.

I spent nearly two decades as a bank analyst and have dissected the inefficiencies from human error to derive specific formulas for allowed variance. When you have 10,000 tellers, you need to find the optimal point that falls between human error and human bad intentions or incompetence. When theft or incompetence is in play, IMMEDIATE second steps are triggered to investigate further.

These investigative steps represent complete, incremental costs, so therefore the variance allowed needs to be as optimal as possible. A teller +/- even $0.01 of the tolerated variance percentage has been determined needy of further action, based on sound statistical study (i.e. there is NO variance allowed on the allowed variance). Further action occurrences are not only incremental labor and actual lost $ costs that can heavily effect profitability, further actions also introduce other negative factors such as system inefficiencies.

However, there is a *seemed* non-financial impact of setting optimal, allowed variances. That impact is stakeholder (tellers) fear and uncertainties rise to the level that they are so afraid of losing their job, they triple count the $.037 in coinage every time someone cashes a check. And who could blame them?

That's why we need to find a place that is optimal and humane. Interestingly, this perceived, non-financial impact is, by far, the largest financial impact of all. Not allowing for human errors - and thus variance - has over a dozen real, always adverse financial consequences. What's near the top of that list of costs?

Employee turnover resulting from firings based on inaccurate assumptions of employee intent, resignation/rehire costs due to stressful working environment and even system payroll inefficiencies caused by employees arriving earlier and staying later caused by the stifling need to quadruple count their drawers in and out each day since the repercussions of inaccuracies are too severe. If all the tellers go from a double count in/out to a quadruple count, and you multiply the on-the-clock labor cost increase by 10,000 tellers then the banking business is no longer a viable OR desirable business model.

But without a doubt, the top financial impact on the seemed non-financial impact dirty-dozen list can be best described by going back to the $0.037 triple coin count to the customer cashing his check.

Very quickly - sometimes after only once occurrence - this customer is G-O-N-E and will never return again.

This can be directly tied back to live, MTT tournament industry. If you demand the benefits of zero variance, then plan on staying 2 hours after you bag and tag, and plan on checking the casino website to see if next day action will start on time (or even it will start at all) because the overnight accountant and security armies have discovered a discrepancy that needs further investigating. Oh, and plan on paying 100% juice to staff those armies.

MTT tournaments therefore must allow variance for the industry to survive. I contend that the 1% actual variance at WPO #1 is completely acceptable for MTT events of this size and re-entry feature. I can therefore comfortably state that there is no blame or liability that the poker world could level against Borgota.

If you disagree, all I can say is be careful what you wish for.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenForest
where did you get this info from ?
if re-entries are going to continue to run, this info should be more accessible IMHO.
total estimate base on ~4,500 buy ins.

and estimate regarding ratio between entries and unique players.

But my estimate here is a total swag, even if it was +/- 25%, the logic is the same.

you are right... should be disclosed.

one more thing, at least when I am talking about refunding players....

I am assuming that anyone that already cashed, keeps it

remaining 27 do some sort of ICM chop

I was only talking about what to do with all other players... i.e. people that entered and did not cash.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrannyMae
In absence of nothing better to do I am going to make me a post here that will be tl;dr to 99% in NVG, but IDGAS.



You seem to be pretty sure the odd colored chip is fake and part of the T1mm+ of fakes.

But them you seem to recant...



TeamEdwards, Who are your sources? If there were only 4 of these in play, can we not deduce that that 200 chips that were introduced were NOT spray painted looking, so therefore much harder to spot, even perhaps nearly impossible because Borgata had 3 different sets in play? Therefore, the reports of Borgata being unaware until being contacted by Harrah's would make sense.

We can surmise this not only from your "source", but also from the discovery of this ALIBABA listing that most assuredly has no spray paint look, but are actually scary because the quality is so high (In fact, based on hundreds of similar products, these chips in the listing could be manufactured by the official maker of PCA chips and siphoned off to the ALIBABA gray-market)



Let's address this photo:



As I touched on above, I find it much more likely that those are not the spray painted chips. I believe that photo only reflects the nuances that would appear in a photo from a tournament that is using three separate, distinctive chip sets of various age and appearance.

I could be wrong but I can't see someone having so many spray painted chips without other players noticing.

In fact, and I don't mean to call him out, but TeamEdwards guy may multiple posts and tweets about passing around the weird chip and it being taken out of play. Ask yourself, would YOU pass around a chip as being so bizarre and ****ed up if they guy you won it from had dozens in his stack? TeamEdwards guy, was that not your photo as well?

You were at his table. You are suggesting that the ONLY spray painted chip to hit the felt from that big stack was so odd that it was passed around and taken out of play. This would suggest that not even a single other chip in that stack being classified as counterfeit by everyone ever hit the table before or after that? How do you introduce 200+ spray paint chips but only splash a single one into a pot?

Clearly, your source was right - there were only a few of those silver chips and therefore the photograph of his stack being cited as proof is not irrelevant to the 200+ counterfeit chips. If those were silver chips you would have looked like a dummy for passing yours around the table and having it removed from play.

I think you need to address this either by stating your source or explaining why you passed a chip around that was so prevalent in his stack and at your table. Please clarify.

Does this mean they are not incompetent as so many have suggested? ex.





Well, they were not have been incompetent visually if indeed the counterfeits were not the spray-painted grey chips.


Digital photos are notorious for completely distorting subtle lighting differences that occur in the spectum between what our eye sees and what the camera photographs. The best way to see this is for you to take a coin out of your pocket and snap a digital pic. You will never get an accurate portrayal of the REAL, 100% unadulterated human eye match unless you have a $4,000 cam and 10 years experience.

Caveat/pre-excuse just in case ---> This entire post is based on the assumption that the silver chips numbered only a few AND that the plethora of colors in the photo of his stack are based on 3 sets being in play, not on them being fakes.

Regarding Borgota Staff -Were they incompetent by not realizing the final counts did not match the total that should have been in play? I don't think so because I have personally never seen players held hostage until all bag and tags were completed and reconciled. That is totally impractical, obviously.

Even overnight reconciliation would be ineffective in a tournament with re-entries and huge fields because the certainty of human error in the bag and tag is 100%. With all the human error involved with several hundred players bagging and tagging and moving on to the next day, what if an overnight reconciliation was not perfect? Do you suspend play the next day while security reviews every bag and tag and handwriting experts debate questionable entries on the bags?

Of course not! The event can't pause while hanging chad type debates and issues are resolved. Factor in the press release that stated the chips were introduced gradually. Do we know what the actual variance was the first day? Was the difference even consequential considering the field size at that point?

Lets step forward a day or two where many would believe a proper count would have been manageable. At this point, there is still possibly human error from many sources that still include bag tag errors, cashier errors on buy-in audits, floor errors resulting from re-entry accounting etc. So it all boils down to variance.

I spent nearly two decades as a bank analyst and have dissected the inefficiencies from human error to derive specific formulas for allowed variance. When you have 10,000 tellers, you need to find the optimal point that falls between human error and human bad intentions or incompetence. When theft or incompetence is in play, IMMEDIATE second steps are triggered to investigate further.

These investigative steps represent complete, incremental costs, so therefore the variance allowed needs to be as optimal as possible. A teller +/- even $0.01 of the tolerated variance percentage has been determined needy of further action, based on sound statistical study (i.e. there is NO variance allowed on the allowed variance). Further action occurrences are not only incremental labor and actual lost $ costs that can heavily effect profitability, further actions also introduce other negative factors such as system inefficiencies.

However, there is a *seemed* non-financial impact of setting optimal, allowed variances. That impact is stakeholder (tellers) fear and uncertainties rise to the level that they are so afraid of losing their job, they triple count the $.037 in coinage every time someone cashes a check. And who could blame them?

That's why we need to find a place that is optimal and humane. Interestingly, this perceived, non-financial impact is, by far, the largest financial impact of all. Not allowing for human errors - and thus variance - has over a dozen real, always adverse financial consequences. What's near the top of that list of costs?

Employee turnover resulting from firings based on inaccurate assumptions of employee intent, resignation/rehire costs due to stressful working environment and even system payroll inefficiencies caused by employees arriving earlier and staying later caused by the stifling need to quadruple count their drawers in and out each day since the repercussions of inaccuracies are too severe. If all the tellers go from a double count in/out to a quadruple count, and you multiply the on-the-clock labor cost increase by 10,000 tellers then the banking business is no longer a viable OR desirable business model.

But without a doubt, the top financial impact on the seemed non-financial impact dirty-dozen list can be best described by going back to the $0.037 triple coin count to the customer cashing his check.

Very quickly - sometimes after only once occurrence - this customer is G-O-N-E and will never return again.

This can be directly tied back to live, MTT tournament industry. If you demand the benefits of zero variance, then plan on staying 2 hours after you bag and tag, and plan on checking the casino website to see if next day action will start on time (or even it will start at all) because the overnight accountant and security armies have discovered a discrepancy that needs further investigating. Oh, and plan on paying 100% juice to staff those armies.

MTT tournaments therefore must allow variance for the industry to survive. I contend that the 1% actual variance at WPO #1 is completely acceptable for MTT events of this size and re-entry feature. I can therefore comfortably state that there is no blame or liability that the poker world could level against Borgota.

If you disagree, all I can say is be careful what you wish for.
How would your bank fare if 1% of the cash they took in was counterfeit?

In the vernacular, I saw you palm that card.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-25-2014 , 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrannyMae

But without a doubt, the top financial impact on the seemed non-financial impact dirty-dozen list can be best described by going back to the $0.037 triple coin count to the customer cashing his check.
I think you meant $0.37. It would be awfully hard to count out 3.7 cents. Let alone do it three times with the triple coin count.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pninwin
i've seen a few "how can he be so stupid to flush the chips?" comments. not sure if someone has brought this up but i think there were drugs seized when his poker house was busted. if he were a hardcore drug addict that would explain a lot. too paranoid to leave the room, so desperate for drugs willing to try a reckless conspiracy. just speculation obviously.
Makes sense, but I believe he was caught using the urinal.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 12:37 AM
did a quick chip count and it looks like out of the remaining 27 stacks there is105,555,000 in play. There is supposed to be 96,280,000 in play based on the number of entries (4814). That's about a 9 million chip difference. The question is if these chips looked genuine would Borgata have even noticed or even if they did notice at the end of the tournament that they had all these extra chips would they have let the public know. makes you wonder if this has happened before and just swept under the rug.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bestinbergen
did a quick chip count and it looks like out of the remaining 27 stacks there is105,555,000 in play. There is supposed to be 96,280,000 in play based on the number of entries (4814). That's about a 9 million chip difference. The question is if these chips looked genuine would Borgata have even noticed or even if they did notice at the end of the tournament that they had all these extra chips would they have let the public know. makes you wonder if this has happened before and just swept under the rug.
Do your calculations include rebuys?
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 01:02 AM
Any players in Event 1 play with Thu Le? In final 27 and caught this article . This is around the same area as Christian Lusardi
This obv must be looked at since running same type illegal gambling house as Lusardi prob know each other

Last edited by pokervangelist; 01-26-2014 at 01:32 AM.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 01:10 AM
I did some number crunching
Of the 27 players left
http://www.pokernews.com/live-report...ents/chips.htm
Chip Total: 97,370,000
Total Entries: 4812
Total Chips: 96,240,000
Difference in Posted Chip Count and Total Chips in play: 1,130,000
That equals 226 5K Chips (11 Stacks+6)
I counted at least 9 stacks of 5K chips in the pic that TeamEdwards guy posted.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenForest
So how do Poker Rooms combat this ?

http://www.alibaba.com/quotation-det...240875439.html

Chinese co's selling counterfeit chips of all Major Poker Rooms & Events !!!
Doesn't that imply that the infiltration of bogus chips is commonplace?
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl2k
Doesn't that imply that the infiltration of bogus chips is commonplace?
It will be now.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 01:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daman2c
I did some number crunching
Of the 27 players left
http://www.pokernews.com/live-report...ents/chips.htm
Chip Total: 97,370,000
Total Entries: 4812
Total Chips: 96,240,000
Difference in Posted Chip Count and Total Chips in play: 1,130,000
That equals 226 5K Chips (11 Stacks+6)
I counted at least 9 stacks of 5K chips in the pic that TeamEdwards guy posted.
Chip counts usually are not verified at the end of the nite. So they don't have to be 100 percent accurate (i.e. you get lazy counting and your off by a small amount. There count be small rounding errors and color up errors also.) A 300,000 error in a tourney of this size is really small/insignifcant.

And if you are looking to sue someone over this event, you sue the criminal not the Borgata.

As for deterring cheating in the future. This event shows :

a. its not easy to cheat an event.
b. even if you do you might only walk away with 6k
c. you might be going to jail for a very long time

all in all on these facts alone the casinos don't have to drastically change how they run poker tournaments. I'm just telling you that people should step back and not think the whole system is flawed. If casinos are forced to put in drastic anti-cheating measures and double their rake its a way worse result than minor opportunities for cheating in tournaments.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 01:55 AM
Hey GrannyMae, my sources have been Tab and the NJDGE in this matter. Looking back it all makes sense. Trust me on this, I'm sure by this point they have bugged my phone and reading every text I send because we should all be looked at like suspects. Feel free to contact me on twitter or email if you have any other questions where reading through these posts are an arduous task in itself. Eeabooking@aol.com @7thecho
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 01:56 AM
There was definitely fakes in play btw. More than the 4 chrome 5ks.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daman2c
I did some number crunching
Of the 27 players left
http://www.pokernews.com/live-report...ents/chips.htm
Chip Total: 97,370,000
Total Entries: 4812
Total Chips: 96,240,000
Difference in Posted Chip Count and Total Chips in play: 1,130,000
That equals 226 5K Chips (11 Stacks+6)
I counted at least 9 stacks of 5K chips in the pic that TeamEdwards guy posted.
What about surrendered stacks where players played multiple days and kept best stack? Those chips would no longer be in play so stack sizes should be smaller than total player count, right?
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 04:01 AM
A few thoughts on the cancellation of this tourney...
If you're miss paid at a casino they ask for the money back, they will call you and ask you to make the situation right. They don't "eat" the loss without first trying to get the money back. I've tried to read every post in this thread, and may have missed it, but I don't think anyone has brought up this possibility. If the tourney has been cancelled and they are going to refund everyone, then I would think they are going to have to ask for the prior payouts to be returned.
I don't think that they will come up with a remedy that will cost them more than what the prize pool ended up being, by paying out top 27 percentages and paying back buyins. I hope so for the players, but I think we are about to find out how much Borgata company loves poker.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasinScrila
I dont see anything in that article to allude to his game running anything other than a poker game. I really think him running a game is a moot point.

The fact that he had 70% more in chips could be a reason to raise an eyebrow, I guess. I'm also trying to see why shutting down his FB page would be a reason to scrutinize this guy?

Putting someone's name out there for these reasons is pretty dumb IMO. It's not like blaming Men The Master as he has a repeated history of cheating.
LOL...how do you feel about it now???
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 04:21 AM
I presume that the Borgata has an accurate count of how many fake chips were entered unless someone believes players then worked to take the chips out of play. I presume all the fake chips ended up in the remaining 27 players stack or were in the color up racks.
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote
01-26-2014 , 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrannyMae

This can be directly tied back to live, MTT tournament industry. If you demand the benefits of zero variance, then plan on staying 2 hours after you bag and tag, and plan on checking the casino website to see if next day action will start on time (or even it will start at all) because the overnight accountant and security armies have discovered a discrepancy that needs further investigating. Oh, and plan on paying 100% juice to staff those armies.

MTT tournaments therefore must allow variance for the industry to survive. I contend that the 1% actual variance at WPO #1 is completely acceptable for MTT events of this size and re-entry feature. I can therefore comfortably state that there is no blame or liability that the poker world could level against Borgota.

If you disagree, all I can say is be careful what you wish for.

I did read your tldr post, almost lost me a few spots but you delivered in the end. Your point is quite valid and your banking background is very relevant to cage operations in a casino.

Matt said something loosely related on the pokercast regarding the need for players to "self police" tournaments, -paraphrasing ...its just part of the game.

Both are correct. An MTT with 0% chance of "variance" a component of which is cheating would not be economically viable.

However, in my opinion MTT industry should at least begin to discuss possible solutions to decrease the chance of and deter cheaters. This would likely take the form of better internal controls, a different view on how they procure and manage chips, and maybe even some affordable technical aid to help manage chips in and out of play and from day to day.

If State regulators across the U.S. are not given any direction on how to modify their regs for MTTs, they might just dictate that 0% variance you describe, many regs and thus internal controls inside the casino are designed with that thinking in mind.

There is a thread for the industry to discuss possible improvements to procedures. any and all ideas welcome. non serious posts will I think be whacked, so serious discussion only please. plenty of other spots in NVG to get your freak on.

Improved procedures for Live MTT organizers to avoid future cheating scandals
Borgata finds counterfeit 5k chips in WPO #1-Cncls event-Arrest made-Lawsuit filed-*RULING OUT* Quote

      
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