10/20 unbeatable? I have records to dispute this claim.

I do remember the crazy action-filled weekends at the Taj where the BBJ would bring in tides of recreational players. I welcome them at the Borgata. I personally don't think the BBJ does that much harm if any at all.

It's like tipping an extra dollar. No big deal... If a dollar out of your win is hurting you that bad, I think you've got bigger problems. Let's show some class and suck it up. You're getting it all back in comps anyway...

Stan, keep up the good work.

I'm referring to the fact that it is very tough to make a living playing 10/20. Now if you have a job or are a retired reg at the 10 game it is possible to make about $10-$12 p/hr, but it would be in your best interest to have supplemental income.

Basically if you are playing LHE as your only source of income in AC and are not playing at least 20/40, you either hate money or are one of those retired regs that are grinding for comps and an hourly that a part time job would pay.

So compare earning 1.2 BB p/hr at 20/40 to that of 1.2 BB at 10/20 before time and tips and playing the 20 game is much more profitable.

Yes - 10/20 game always has a half kill.

Went down on Monday evening after work. Since I live in north NJ we didn't get there until about 7:30. The game had already broken for the day. However, a few regs came back after their own dinner break. We all agreed to play O/8 $15-$30 with no kill. It was lots of fun.

Played O/8 $10-$20 with the half kill most of Tuesday. Game started around 11 or so. Left around 7:30. It helped that there was a free roll tournament going on Tuesday for the regs. Most shoved early and were back at the o/8 table within a 1/2 hour.

Stan
I know that there is a 3rd man walking rule and how it works. However, there seem to be one or two players that lock up a seat, play a few hands and then wonder around for 45 minutes or so. Then they come back for a 1/2 hour (until the next dealer) and do the same thing again. This went on all day (with the woman you comped the room to but I've seen this done before) at the O/8 $10-$20 game. Wasn't right for the players at the table or those on the waiting list. She was gone from the table more then she played during the 8+ hours I was there. At one point 2 guys got up together to grab a quick bite and someone wanted to invoke the 3rd man walking rule. The two of them hadn't gotten up all day. Just didn't seem right.

What can be done with these type or "nomad" players that have a seat and then wander about most of the day? The seats at the O/8 $10-20 table don't turn over very often because of this type of behavior.

Can someone explain, logically, why letting certain games into the BBJ when it's *high* is unfair if the same game hasn't been contributing to the BBJ when it was *low*?

How is it any different from 10 players, say, all sworn Taj regulars, who play at Borgata only when the BBJ reaches $X? If there's no mathematical advantage, it's really unfair to call it unfair...

Your numbers are way too low. Win rates of 1-2 BB per hour are attainable after time and tips. Do you actually play 10/20?

This issue seems to be somewhat unique to the 10/20 O8 game.

I think that this and the 20/40 Stud game are the only raked games offering $2/hour or more in comps, so there is greater incentive to wander off. I don't know how the rule is utilized in the 20/40 Stud or how effective it is there.

One issue with the 3rd man walking rule is that not all floors seem to be aware that there is a 3rd man walking rule at this game. Even though it has been in effect for more than 7 months, some floors still appear to be unaware of this policy, even earlier this month insisting that the game did not have this rule. Even when it is supposed to be enforced, it can often take a significant period of time for the player to be picked up.

Eliminating the 3rd man walking rule probably won't be a feasible solution, since many regulars (primarily those that play between the hours of 10AM and 6PM) often refuse to play when there are less than 7 active players. Before the rule was brought back, the game often broke after a few players left around 5-6PM to eat. After those regulars leave the game in the evening the game is able to survive short-handed.

For the most part the 3rd man walking rule is effective in keeping the game going during the day, though there are a few players that appear to sometimes abuse the rule leaving the table much more often than others.

Possible solutions might be:

1) Clocking out players who leave the table in raked games with a 3rd man walking rule.
2) Not allowing a player to return an absent button until the next dealer arrives.
3) Warning players who consistently leave the table and generate complains.
4) Encouraging use of the dinner list.
5) Being more proactive in picking up players who receive 2 absent buttons.
6) Changing the game to a time collection (perhaps $4-5/half?)

The average BBJ jackpot given out so far has been about $120,000. Therefore, it is hit on average every 120000 hands played, with an average EV of $1 per raked jackpot hand. When the BBJ jackpot is low, the EV of the jackpot rake is less than $1, while it is more than $1 when the jackpot is high. Right now, with the large BBJ around $350K, the EV of the BBJ dollar is probably around $2 or so, with it likely being highest in the 2/4 limit game and lowest in the 2/5 NL game.

If some games only decide to join the BBJ when it is high, it makes "regulars" of the other BBJ games less likely to hit the jackpot, and their average EV over time would be lower. (eg, if 10/20 Limit only joined the BBJ when the EV of the jackpot dollar was $2, it would necessarily reduce the average EV of all the other games, since the average EV of the jackpot dollar is $1 over time) Players could consider it unfair that a particular game can opt into the jackpot only when it reaches a certain amount, when they expect to get more out of the jackpot than they put in.

Though, I do agree that there isn't much logical difference between regulars of another casino deciding to move to the Borgata to play when the BBJ is high than a game joining the BBJ when it is high, since the logic is the same in either case.

Re: (10-20 omaha) ...Before the rule was brought back, the game often broke after a few players left around 5-6PM to eat...

***

That is a great and funny story as those are the 'same' players (playing at another casino) that inspired my 'Genos Steaks' story. [ plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ] See, part of the thing is that despite all sorts of eccentric behavior all these players are putting in thousands of hours consistently and without end. It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks and if you make their life too difficult, they will find somewhere else to go play. One thing about this Omaha game is you may wait for hours, without eating or going to the bathroom, waiting for the game to be called, (which is by the way, why, when I write 'live game reports' I add a section on 'games about to be called' - I have a big nose (plenty of intuition and experience) and know about a half an hour before the local management when the omaha game is ready to go off, ( - and now we take a commercial break to go back to our main story of the day,) if you go eat (or take a walk to find a non-smoking bathroom), you lose your place on the queue and you could find yourself waiting all day and in effect, never get into the omaha game (at least not at the Borgata) that day...

Re: 10-20 omaha


Re: ...Eliminating the 3rd man walking rule probably won't be a feasible solution, since many regulars (primarily those that play between the hours of 10AM and 6PM) often refuse to play when there are less than 7 active players...

***

If memory serves, these are the only players in AC that consistently go out on wildcat strikes (refusing to play despite having made prior agreements over playing conditions) but much more interestingly, almost always get their way. I stopped playing in the 10-20 omaha game as the players refused to behave themselves without shift manager intervention. They would not accept a correct ruling by the dealer or the floorperson (and now you may begin to see why I reserve the word 'prima donna' for players in this game). And of course, calling the shift manager, well, this takes time...by the way, this is one of the best games in the house, there is a good reason, you now often have two of these games going on at once, before there was only one, and so, the game is well worth the ride from Philly, - the game is so good I'm sure Peter Pan is probably working on a deal, as we speak, to have a charter bus come in from B'klyn, just to play in this game!

Time for a live game report Thursday 8:30 am

(4) Live games

(3) 1-2 NL
(1) 2-5 nl

BBJP $355,405

One new 2-5 game, open seating and a 10-20 lhe seems almost ready to go and hit the BBJP. 9:15am, and the omaha 10-20 players have already started swarming around the honey, maybe an hour too soon (3 players on list, 6 on the 10-20 lhe)

Very seldom and only because I can win more money playing 20. If my stats even came close to 2 BB p/hr at 10/20, I would play that because of the lower variance. But I really do think the average winning player in that game doesn't come close to 2 BB p/hr and if I am making $30-$35 an hour playing the 20 game I see no need to experiment playing lower.

You obviously have been playing in that game for a number of years and know how to exploit that type of game, it is just too low and too boring of a game to keep my interest.

Haha, yeah, my friends and I were going to do an impromptu trip to AC, leaving today, coming back saturday, but after getting the rates, we decided it was too expensive. I think its the air show coupled with us waiting until the last minute.

I miss the borg, havent been since before black friday. Maybe next month.

First let me say to was great to be able to put a face with the post. It was a pleasure playing with you on Monday.

I like your suggestions and hope Stan takes note.
I think clocking out players who leave for more then 10 minutes (or realistically when a new dealer comes on) would help.

Changing the game to a time collection would probably be the best answer. It worked nicely when the game shifted from $10-$20 half kill to $15-$30 no kill

Re: 10-20 omaha

I think clocking out players who leave for more then 10 minutes

***

I think it would be much more effective and in the spirit of your proposal to attach the players to their chairs with a ball and chain.

I am surprised that Borgata would allow players in raked games to stay clocked in when they have are not at their seat, especially if they have an absent button. Why should they be getting comps if they are not paying rake? I know at Harrahs, they are hypervigilent about clocking people out (e.g. You are clocked out even if you havent missed a blind yet).

However, people at the 20/40 LHE take extended breaks all the time, even though they are still paying time while absent, so I'm not sure this would solve the problem in the O8.

Any reason for the drop in runners on Wednesday AM 15k GTD?

Thinking about coming down this Tuesday regaurdless.

As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air — however slight — lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. It is a clear and present danger to allow poker players a few minutes of time for sunshine, a smoke, or to chase a skirt in the summer. Best we keep them tied down to their chairs, well put, comrade Nick.

Air Show yesterday

Stan

Time for a live game report Thursday 1:00pm


(24) Live games


(2) 2-4 LHE
(1) 3-6 LHE
(2) 10-20 LHE
(1) 20-40 LHE


(2) 10-20 Omaha H/L
(1) 40-80 HORSE


(8) 1-2 NL
(5) 2-5 NL
(2) 5-10 NL


BBJP $360,412


Stan


stanstrickland@theborgata.com

Time for a live game report Thursday 2:15pm


(30) Live games


(2) 2-4 LHE
(2) 3-6 LHE
(3) 10-20 LHE
(1) 20-40 LHE


(2) 10-20 Omaha H/L
(1) 40-80 HORSE
(1) 300-600 HORSE


(10) 1-2 NL
(5) 2-5 NL
(2) 5-10 NL


BBJP $360,412


Stan


stanstrickland@theborgata.com

I have played 4 long sessions in this game over the last 2 weeks. The certain few players whom are nomads inconvience the rest of us. After 4 staight hours of play I wasn't able to take a much needed 20 minute break because of the 3rd man walking rule. During the four hours the nomads didn't play more than 1 hour. I even seen one nomad come back to the table return the 2 absent buttons to the dealer and leave without ever playing a hand when the dealer changed. Gone again for another hour!

Stan something needs to be done!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hilo Donk

Re: I even seen one nomad come back to the table return the 2 absent buttons to the dealer and leave without ever playing a hand when the dealer changed. Gone again for another hour!

***

The poker room is generous beyond words to its players. Beyond that, the Borgata has a real life big brother operation that does not tolerate stealing and operates apart from the poker room management. I have never seen the kind of behavior you are describing, but if it does happen you may kindly inform the individual of the risks he is running. A visit from the folks assigned to put a halt to such abuse is not the most pleasant experience, but the Borgata security is a nine-headed beast that sees everything and is not inclined to play these kinds of games. A word to the wise.

If they don't play a hand, you can remind the (new) dealer to just put the two absent buttons back. The absent buttons should only be collected AFTER a hand is played.

re: comps while away. The Borgata is currently allowing players to remain clocked in even though they are away as a courtesy (probably.) They are also avoiding the issue/hassle of determining the trigger point (bathroom? smoke? long walk? etc) for taking someone off the clock. Unless one is an accountant for Borgata, I don't think any player should really care. The threat of getting turned into a non-clocked "Guest" isn't going to incent any nomads into picking up chips and freeing up a seat in raked game.

The nomad issue did come up a couple months ago and one of the staff did instruct the dealer(s) to change the player into a Guest the next time he (young player who did this repeatedly that day) did it. So they apparently are willing to do something about it. The actual effectiveness was minimal (player came back, played a bit, and then left for his own reasons.)

More effective enforcement (i.e. player prodding) of the 2 Absent buttons rule might help, but I think some sort of measure against repeat offenders is needed to really make a dent in the issue. At this point tho, I don't know what would be appropriately (i.e. not some complicated tracking system that might also hurt legit a quick one-meal-a-day or shower break) useful for an issue that is kind of annoying, but usually not a big deal.

As an aside, I personally would prefer to see a rule that keeps the Sunday game from becoming a disdainful, nasty, bitchfest. But that's not really a room management concern.