random rules/scoring question, cliffs at bottom:

we're in league last night and the course is essentially under water.

13th is a dogleg left, and running along the left side is sort of a gully that leads up towards the hole. gully is in some places 2 feet deep with standing water.

opponent hooks his drive into the gully and standing water. he and his teammate look for both of their balls for a solid 10 minutes. I'm amused watching from the middle of the fairway.

he finally hits. he duffs his second shot about 25 yards forward into the standing water again.

commence another 5 minutes of searching. he then announces, "oh hey here's my drive, it's right next to my other shot I'll just play my drive".

lulz

he hits a miraculous line drive that stops on the back of the green.

while walking up I ask, "what was the first ball you hit from the standing water?"

"oh I played a provisional bc I didn't know if I would find my drive"

errrrr

so I'm not mad, nor am I really the type that wants to hash out the rules with a complete stranger when we have to hurry anyway to get the 9 in before dark.

I lag up, tap in for par.

his "third" shot...I think you can see where this is going...he chips in from 50 feet and starts celebrating with his buddy.

errrrr

luckily there was a 5th playing with us (hes on their team but our buddy and was just playing to play) as we were the last group in the league. I said, "yo, you gotta go tell him there's no way that's a 3 lol".

we had been laughing about it in the fairway.

when we both brought it up on the next tee, dude legit was upset, not mad just hurt that he wasn't going to get his birdie.

we ended up settling on a 4 for him. which was fine for me bc he had to give me a shot on that hole so I got the full point. he wasn't happy.

"but when I hit my second it was a provisional bc I didn't know if I'd find my ball".

that's about where I started to get annoyed...

"br0, a provisional is off the tee. what you did was either take a drop or hit the wrong ball".

we spent 3-4 mins explaining the fairly simple concept to him, he still felt like even AFTER HITTING A NEW BALL (which, I never did bring up to him but is shady as ****. he acted like he found and hit his drive and then only after he chunked that shot did he say he found his original drive. WTF is wrong with people?) that he in fact found his drive, pitched it up to the green and chipped in for birdie.

turns out even giving him the 4 cost me 1/2 point because we ended up tying the total score. ugh

so anyway, if I were a dick, what exactly are the pertinent penalties in this case? lost ball obv, 2-shot penalty for hitting the wrong ball (both for the second shot, then again for the second, "second shot") right?

I even called a 2-shot penalty on myself in the same league earlier in the year bc I was in deep rough behind the green, saw a ball and hit it out w/o really looking at it. after I marked on the green I said, '**** that wasn't my ball'. after finding my ball the other team told me not to take the penalty but rules is rules.

cliffs:

-guy hooks drive into gully w/standing water.
-guy "finds" drive and chunks secod shot
-guy then finds original drive and wants to forget about the original second shot and play 2 from the drive saying secod shot was a provisional (lulz)
-guy obv chips in for birdie and calls out "I had a 3"
-I grimace

just typing that made me tilted again.

****ing guy hits a ball he KNOWS isn't his and also knows i can't see down into the gully to call him on it acting like it's his drive.

then scoffs it forward 20 yards, THEN HAS THE ****ING GALL TO ANNOUNCE HE FOUND HIS DRIVE AND IS JUST GOING TO HIT 2 FROM THERE??!? like the ****inh second shot never even happened?

LOOOL

up to that point I had hit 3/3 fairways and the green on the only par 3. that 380 yard hole took probably 30 minutes, 95% of which i was just sitting in the fairway waiting, drinking a beer.

next tee shot, which I am NOT exaggerating took at least 30 minutes from the last tee shot, I hit a ridiculous 45-degree slice into (probably over honestly) the river from tilting.

wasn't ever really to the point where we were arguing, but he was still mumbling about it 2 holes later. eventually I did say, "okay look put down your 3, but when we get to the clubhouse we're explaining it all to the league guy and we'll both accept his official score. just so you know though, there's at LEAST 2 shots worth of penalties in there..."

he goes, "nah, just for the sake of moving on I'll just take the 4, tho i still kinda think it should be a birdie. but since you feel that it shouldn't be it won't be".

i didn't realize how annoyed i was until I typed all this out just now. haha, what a ****ing dick.

That's a massive Charlie Foxtrot, I could ask a dozen questions about various aspects but I'll just give a quick and dirty.

1, he didn't announce a provisional (and it sounds as though he didn't actually hit one)
2, once you take a drop and play or whatever, the other ball is out of play

Your opponent probably made an 8 or so depending on tons of things. However I must ask why you weren't assisting with the ball search, this is something you should do out of courtesy but it also protects the integrity of the match.

In these funky situations, a player must go through what's going on with his opponent or a rules official. Otherwise all hell breaks loose and it did here.

BO

he certainly didnt announce a provisional. and i wouldn't say 'all hell broke loose' mostly bc there really wasn't a ton at stake. my buddy was something like 11 over thru 4 at that point.

we explained to dude that once he hit his "provisional", which was in fact a drop with a penalty, the original drive was just another lost ball in the woods.

and that when he chose to hit the original drive over his "provisional", there's another 2-shot penalty for hitting the wrong ball.

didn't want to lay it on too thick bc it was a friendly group and not much was on the line, but even when he "gave in" and took a 4, he wanted everyone to know he was only doing that to speed the group up and keep everyone happy.

gotta love people. i just grinned at that.

as played, my guess is a 7.

drive, one shot penalty for drop. 3rd shot 20 yards forward. two shot penalty for hitting the wrong ball (his original drive) so his 6th up to the back of the green, chip in for 7.

obviously though somewhere in there the consequences of what he was doing needed to be mentioned before he played on if there was anything at stake.

i wish I coulda seen my own face when, after ALL that, the discussion with two other people while it was all going on, the endless searching for balls (his partner was in the same place and also miraculously had a 4 now that im thinking about it), etc. he chips in, celebrates, I say, "nice shot, what was that for?" and he goes, AND I MOTHER****ING QUOTE:

"birdie baby"

I turned around but I imagine it was equal parts amusement, disgust and annoyance that now I was gonna have to get into a rules debate on the 14th hole of a mosquito-infested, flooded non-consequential friendly league round.

Well, he continued to play the wrong ball so that would result in DQ or loss of hole(s) depending on format. But as I did, it's pretty worthless to go over all the rules he broke and possible score because as played is impossible to figure out an actual score.

BO

Pretty sure you guys are forgetting about the rules concerning ball lost in casual water( not sure if this is the correct term in english) if the gully is not marked as ahazard he can drop within one clublenght of where it entered the area without penalty.

If he is not 100% certain it's in there, then equity applies and it must be considered a lost ball. Also, it's one club length from the nearest point of relief no closer to the hole, not the entry point. Just sayin

I assume if there's standing water ther's a splash, and it's not 100% certain unless you find the ball so why have the rule?

Nearest point of releaf applies when you can find the ball in the area, not when it is lost, no?

Don't have a rulebook but some googling leads me to rule 25-1c, not sure if the usga have different numbers.

When I say 100% I don't mean you have to find and identify the ball if it's obvious it went in there. If its pretty obvious that its in the casual water, come to an agreement with the group of where it likely ended up and move on.

As for the procedure, it's casual water. Find the nearest point of relief. Im on my phone but I'll bust out a link to the rule when i get to my computer later tonight.

*edit*

got it. Apparently we're both right but you more than me. I was thinking about a general "casual water" relief (25-1b(i) below), but specific to the ball not being found but being certain it's in there, you do the point of entry like you said (25-1c also below). Here's the rule:

25-1b. Relief
Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows:

(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the condition and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

25-1c. Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found
It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward an abnormal ground condition is in such a condition. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal ground condition. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. (Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes).

If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:

(i) Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green, the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i)

Ive been getting redic sharp lower back pain about an inch above my ass crack. Other than swinging properly (working on that), whats the best way to combat/reduce that?

Its not consistant, but every now and then if I turn even the slighest bit it just kills.

Anyone?

Finally posted the rest of my Scotland trip pics in case you don't see sticky threads.

I go to the doctor and I say "doc, every now and then if I turn even the slightest bit it just kills me." Doctah says "don't turn just a little bit."

lol...trust me, everyone in that foursome (well, fivesome) had to pull balls from casual water/ground under repair (and by "repair", i mean "totally ****ed") at least once. probably like 10+ times for the group.

there was no splash either.

i'm trying not to think about it anymore. at the time it was annoying, but the more i think about it the more i realize that mother****er was just straight up consciously cheating. ugh

2 holes before that, his buddy hit a hook grounder into a pond. he goes, "path of flight right?" and drops his ball on the edge of the fairway, at least 25 yards from the pond. which, coincidentally gave him a 150 yard straight on shot to the green when putting the ball anywhere near the pond meant he 100% has to punch out 100 yards short.

people suck.

I think it would be leaps and bounds for you if you just started calling everyone out on their **** without hesitation. Sure, it may deter them from ever playing with you again but it will also remove all the darkness that you have about golfing with other people.

Eventually, the only people you will end up paired with will be people who play the game properly in accordance with the rules so you won't have to call them out on it. Seems like an honest and stress-free way to live life instead of bottling the tilt for an entire round

It only occurs during or a few hours after a round. Hopefully iy wont get stronfer over the season.

Yeah, but who wants to play with BO every day? =P

Just got the email from the Masters, no practice round tickets for like the sixth year in a row. Boo.

honestly, this is the first time in....**** maybe ever that a rules thing came up that annoyed me. in our league you go out with one other person from your team and 2 from another, you don't get to pick who from the other team anyway.

95% of the rounds i play are with close friends and/or my brother/dad, so a) none of those people cheat and b) if they did, i'd mock and torment them relentlessly until the admitted their transgression.

just kinda ballsy how this particular guy went about it.

Anyone know how to get a hold of the aimpoint charts without actually taking the class?

on a side note holy hell at some kid in the us jr am and his sergio re grip thing going on, must be annoying to play with. These kids are pretty good though, some of them seem to blast a few putts by though.

What's a good game to play for money in a 3 some that sort of puts things on a level playing field individually? Friend is a +2 handicap, we're about 10-12 range.

The 2 of you could play a scramble

yeah that would probably be pretty close, the +2 might still need to give a shot or two for 18. Depends exactly how everyone is playing as of late and the course you all are playing.

just in case some of the noobs haven't watched this yet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szFdqSIrFsY

Where do you guys find these leagues and such to play in? I played competitively in high school, took some time off in college, and am just starting to get in the swing of things again. I've looked around online for leagues, playing partners (for semi-competitive matches), clubs, etc. without much luck. Are there regional golf forums that people use?

I've also been looking into amateur tournaments in the area, but can't really find any that aren't played on weekdays (can't get off work). Men's clubs at the public courses are always an option, but I would probably be the youngest member by 25+ years.

I'm in the NYC metro, Westchester county, CT area fwiw.