I'm no lawyer, well ... yes I am, but it doesn't take one to know that the "more likely than not" or the "preponderance of the evidence" burden that is used in civil matters in this country had been met in this instance. Millions of dollars are awarded every day with less evidence than this. No, it is not beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no chip dumping, and no, I would not put anyone in jail based on this evidence. But this matter doesn't need to wait for Stars IMO.

He played 40+ sng's in 2009 according to sharkscope.

Na this DEF needs to wait for Stars

You're right, that's crazy.

This. Remember, StoppedClock was a micro sng player, just like breeezzz, and coincidentally, exactly what RoSeeker coaches.

Roseeker has already admitted to meeting StoppedClock in real life, but he 'hasn't admitted to coaching her, because we can't prove that.'

FAIL!

Chip dumping in a cash game would seem to be of little or no significance to Stars. I can see them looking at two players squeezing a third, but why would they care about a prop bet. Because without the prop bet going on, none of this dumping, even if true, would be of any concern to them. I understand them wanting to insure the integrity of the game to keep players content, but this chip dump seems outside of their interest zone.

The real evidence that has been established by Jalex is from sources completely external to Stars (relationship of dumpers and roseeker, roseeker shady behavior itt).

It probably be best if people like this who don't seem to have even read half the thread refrained from posting cliffs.

About 20 pages or so ago even guys who had been staunch defenders of gary from the start agreed that chip dumping occurred during the prop bet after watching the thread unfold and seeing the absolute mountain of evidence uncovered.

Guys coming in a posting cliffs that leave out tons of important info are just muddying the waters and will lead to others coming in and saying stuff like 'so he is guilty because he 3bet with 86o'. It's setting the discussion back 20 or 30 pages.

If someone is going to post cliffs make them comprehensive. A proper cliffs post at this stage is going to be quite long after all the evidence that's been uncovered.

I really hope this is some kind of stupid attempt at a joke.

Guys,

Maybe we can get the guy responsible for this Jason Ho video to make a Gary Neville video for us.

Either Stars has evidence of transactions between the players which would support the chip dumping claim. But if they have no evidence it doesn't mean he's innocent either.

The ****ed thing is that even if stars says that gary didnt collude, he still will lose the bet because obviously the judges are against him, at least jalex is lol

LOL. Things usually get ****ed up once people try to go in to Bolivia.....

the judges are against him because of the evidence, not because of a personal vendetta you moron!

Pretty sure that's what he meant. moron.

Seems fine to me

Yup, bolivia poster was clearly alluding to Iron Mike's famous line.

Someone else made this point earlier and it's a good one - If gary gets off here, prop betting on 2+2 will have no credibility. If you can't deduce that cheating occurred in this prop bet there is no point even having judges for prop bets in future as what would be the point? There is massive amount of evidence now in this thread and if that is not good enough, what is? Is the only way to declare that someone cheated to have video/audio evidence? Basically anyone doing a prop bet will be freerolling if they decide to cheat knowing that unless they are videotaped setting up the scam they will not be declared cheats.

95%+ of the people who bothered to read the thread the whole way through, even the ones who were strongly supporting gary for the first 100 pages agreed that cheating occurred based on the overwhelming evidence. It is pretty obvious to anyone following the thread that there is no way in hell that the multiple series of extremely unlikely coincidences here happened by chance.

Right, so what are people hoping Stars to find that we don't already know? I reckon judges should just make a decision and go with it. I do remember it was pretty sketchy in the prop bet watching him type away on his laptop and it wasn't to Justin TV and then when everyone asked to see his screen he half heartedly attempted to show it but then just gave up.

If there was cheating involved, which, having read the whole thread, it looks fairly convincing (but not 100% conclusive) that there has been, I really think those responsible should just come out and admit it. Salvage what dignity you have left.

****ing disaster, they not rule this a loss/win yet?

Started reading the thread this morning and honestly its been better than most books ive read. Ive kept unbiased opinions the whole way through and probably couldnt make a 100% decision either way. Putting what you already think aside, there are so many variables to consider. I also have no interest/stake in this whatsoever.

-this all started due to "abnormally" played hands late on a Friday night

-a decent percentage of the players are either drinking, drunk, stoned, or tired after a week of work/studying/etc.

-OP is at the tail end of a 30k hand session hyped up on red bull and mentally and physically exhausted. Im sure most of you know what its like when caffeine is the one and only thing keeping you going. I do it sometimes just for the hallucinations themselves. So airtight play from a losing reg cant be the bar that is set.

-breez was 2-3 tabling. OP was 12-24 tabling (I think 24 at the time but this could be wrong). If im taking a shot and some guy that seems agro takes me off a pot on one table and then tries it again on another, i might shove 107 into him too. this hand can mean alot of things to different people, but it doesnt prove anything at all.

-the fact that this happened at the end of the bet could be key or it could be trivial. Whatever side of this you're currently on is the side that you will defend.

-the fact that he knows someone that knows someone that lost money to him on this day is also not solid evidence. ive been a tourney reg for awhile now and know some big names out there personally. These big names know alot of people and im sure i have played with most of them at one time or another. That doesnt mean that we know each other.

-take a look through your last 30k hands and tell me how many pots you have taken off of micro regs or randoms that are taking a shot/tilting/drunk. I bet it is a lot more than 2-3. (really take a look. i found 6 that spewed uncontrollably in the first 2k hands.) this is not proof of anything imo.

-OP acted very strange when questioned about all of this. This was actually the first time I had suspicions. I thought about this for a long time and still dont really know what to think. Out of personal experience, I know when questioned by accusations most of the time people are going to act out of character whether innocent or guilty. The innocent people dont want to act guilty and end up acting strange (i.e. being overly nice,inquisitive, helpful.) The guilty people dont want to act guilty so they end up acting the same way (i.e. being overly nice,inquisitive, helpful.)

-I dont know if this is standard, but the fact that the judges posted multiple hand histories seems very wrong. That would be like a court judge posting all of the facts of the case on the internet and then making a decision based off of responses. Make the decision and live with knowing you made the best one you could. The fact that there was only 1 judge was messed up too.

All in all it is a complete mess. The only "right" thing to do is not going to make everyone happy. So how can it be right.

u might have missed it but breezzz responded and didn't mention drunkenness as part of his play

So, would I be correct in assuming that the decision - essentially - is between "draw; everyone gets their money back" and "Gary cheats/fails, the bettors win?"

Okay, so RoSeeker just PM'ed me. I won't post the PM, but I'd like to post an excerpt from my response:

Here's the deal. I certainly do have lots of personal information on you saved up. I have not posted any of it, because _I_ do have a sense of justice and propriety.

You have not been forthcoming at all and neither have any of your buddies. Want to prove your innocence?

1. Have Pokerstars email me your transaction history on both of your accounts.
2. Have FTP email me your transaction history on the Sol Reader account.
3. Have your good friend breeezzz do the same for his accounts.
4. Have your real life friend StoppedClock do the same.

I'll put up $10,000 in escrow that I won't violate your privacy or their privacy related to these details, assuming they show nothing malicious.

5. Did you have action in this prop bet?
6. Do you still claim you were 'watching breeezzz's tables' when he 4 bet folded as you stated in the thread?

IMO, you won't do any of the above, because your crew was involved in chip dumping. The language you used in the thread, the fact you guys are running and hiding, the obvious evidence linking you to the random accounts, ALL points to the fact that you are guilty. And noone I have implicated is trying to clear their name other than lame denials.

Prove me wrong, otherwise this PM, like your posts, is a ton of smoke.

Also, he has asked me to stop calling him names, so I'll do my best not to call him scumbag anymore. I'd suggest everyone else try to comply with this request, because he's also apparently contacted moderators/admins.