i'd be wary of that. obviously it wasn't the case here, but i think it would be easy to find a player who seemingly chip dumped (i.e. rongrong or whatever who lost a ton to OP, but doesn't seem to have anything to do with chip dumping).

after this whole fiasco any judges of prop bets like this one would be looking extra hard for similar situations and coincidences do happen. i would not like to be the guy who sent a couple extra thousand in escrow and have my money locked up while i tried to convince everyone (truthfully) that it was all coincidence that some drunk idiot moved up 3 limits and threw his roll at me.

in all honesty, i just don't see a bet like this occurring again.

p.s. i just realized i never did thank jalex for his hard work. great job. you definitely put a lot of effort into this whole thing and it showed.

Two things...

1. If you were innocent, you wouldn't act like these clowns.

2. The evidence that I found (to this point) with rongrong def. wouldn't have been enough to overturn the bet.


I agree tho as far as this type of prop going down again, it was stupid to begin with.

You don't see the difference between agreeing on something BEFOREHAND and calling someone a liar and a scum (back when this whole thing was just starting) but saying, 'Hey, Gary, we think you're trying to lie and cheat us, so go ahead and send us a few thousand'?

wut

youre accusing him with the thorough investigations anyway, not like hes unaware that everyone thought he was a liar and scum.

if he was innocent, and had a 20k roll on stars as I read somewhere, and he plays nl200, i dont see the problem with escrowing an extra couple k to show your innocence. not like he couldnt also say hey ill escrow an additional 5k for 10 days until you guys sort it out, but if you still cant id like it returned to me.

like i said, there isn't much potential upside for him but not much potential downside either if he knows he did not cheat. heck, just for fun, maybe we could consider the possibility that jalex would have seen his gesture of goodwill to ship 5-10k extra as further evidence he did not cheat and not be as thorough in his investigation. it would have been interesting.

There is nothing wrong with this idea. It would just be one more term the bettors and bet-offerer would have to agree on.

I'm not sure with stars policy so,

when did gary's account start being under investigation?

Could Gary have immediately withdraw all his cash from his stars account onto a online bank (netteller etc.) right when the suspicion on 2p2 started?

If thats the case, gary is dumber than we thought

just turning in late to say jalex is the bomb, you deserve all credit and monies you get

lol this would have been the first thing I would have done after playing the T7o hand (since the webcam couldn't see his screen)

I can't see Stars taking much action here. From the hands posted, it doesn't look like any other players lost money as the result of the chip dumping, so Stars has a technical infringement, and no reason to take harsh measures. The fact that the infringement involved cheating on a 2+2 propbet is really not their concern other from a PR point of view. I think they will think very seriously about whether they should confiscate the money in OP's account, especially if it is $20k, without any evidence of an intent to defraud other players on Stars (even if the bettors play on Stars themselves, they won't have been involved in any losses due to the play).

We all know Stars is great at rooting out cheaters themselves, and reimbursing us if we've been affected, but I think this situation will put them in a very difficult position.

I think we should reserve judgement on whether we take any further action against Roseeker/Gary as a community, until we discover what Stars has done, then we can debate whether we wish to add to the punishment.

FWIW, I'm an old bloke, and I think we old guys tend to take a more lenient view of children's behaviour than other children do - (my eldest son is a lot older than Gary, so anyone under 25 is a child to me) there has been a certain "Lord of the Flies" mood in this thread which disturbs me. I think we need to punish the boys for their attempted fraud - but I think their youth, panic and lack of premeditated intent to defraud should be taken into consideration. By which I mean that spamming their families with hate would be a step too far, but outing them as cheaters on all poker forums, communities and bulletin boards, with their real names might well be the minimum appropriate action.

I think this is an important issue for our community, and we should not emotionally spasm without thinking about the full impact of this on the lives of the idiots who tried to cheat.

I would bet money you're wrong about what stars does.

I'll bet, but how will we know whether Roseeker isn't your mate IRL and fixed the emails just to win my money?

lack of premeditated intent? In the apology, Ro said they discussed the possibility of cheating before the bet was even officially made.

This.

I don't find that surprising, when teenagers are betting huge amounts of money, but from what I gather from reading the whole thread, I don't think they set out to cheat - I think they panicked and then cheated in a ridiculous way - if cheating had been the original intent, we would have seen consistent chip dumping over more time, not to say some slightly more intelligent dumping T7o lol ffs.

To be crystal, I'm definitely not sympathetic to their plight, they deserve what they are going to get. Indeed, my post was prompted by the belief that Stars will not be able to punish them for defrauding us. But I'd like our vengeance to be tempered with humanity.

they planned it ahead of time as a freeroll - if gary was winning they wouldn't do it, but if he started losing like he did, theyd start dumping. this is the definition of setting out to cheat.

their entire actions throughout the entire thread has shown this isn't just some youthful mistake they made. this was straight up cheating from start to finish.

also, given how they handled the whole investigation, there's no way we should assume they would have dumped intelligently - if they were even of above average intelligence, they wouldnt have been caught.

Eh, they transferred money into stoppedclocks account the day before the bet with the sole intention of dumping it to gary. Of course they set out to cheat.

These guys cheated with the prop bet, and then cheated during the 10 days or so after it when they refused to come clean and tried to freeroll the bettors by hoping stars wouldn't find enough evidence to say they are guilty. Scumbags of the highest order.


This is what I think should be done -
Give them a choice - Pay the bettors at least 3x the amount they won or else a http://www.stevenwareisathief.com type webpage should be put up with their names.

If they really do feel so bad about STEALING from the bettors this is their opportunity to prove it. And it's actually a good deal for them financially as having a http://www.stevenwareisathief.com webpage that shows you are a scammer will cost you ALOT more than a couple of K down the line.

If you are reading this roseeker/gary_neville, type steve ware into google and observe the first result. Now imagine if that was what happened when you typed your own name into google...

Attention Bettors: You should club together some of your winnings and approach admo with the intention of putting a scammer webpage up for these thieves. A webpage like this would cost less hardly anything. Then you should ask gary_neville & roseeker to compensate you for attempted fraud and for freerolling you during the 10 days after the bet or you will put this webpage live.

Letting them 'buy' their names of the webpage is not OK for obvious reasons. I really think 2+2 should put up a page on which scammers that have been uncovered should be outed. This is a poker scam and should be well known within the pokercommunity but not outside. There's no need to **** someone up for live for something this 'small'. Apart from that, they might grow up and see what they did eventually. Having a webpage put up for multiple years seriously harming job-opportunites is a bit too harsh.

If 2+2 would dedicate a page or area on this site that would be more than enough. After three years your name is off the list. After a couple of more months google forgets as well ...

The difference is that steven guy disappeared with 30k, while gary in this case paid his side of the propbet.

And about future propbets, what if someone from the betters decides he wants to cheat, then you should be escrowing double their money too. And we are back to square zero.

So how to prevent this in the future? There should definietly be a some kind of a penalty included in rules. If either side is found out to be cheating then: xxx.

This.

I'm not a huge weapons fan tbh, but I hope you'll have fun with your toy, hope you got enough out of this to buy it as a small compensation for your excellent work. Thanks again, god.
Well, the escrows were holding the money, so it was pretty impossible for him not to pay, right?


It was the first prop bet I ever put money in, because obviously I was aware of the fact that it is indeed not too difficult to chip dump in some way. However, I have read some posts by Gary in the Regs threads and in SSNL and he really seemed like a dedicated grinder going for SNE who is putting up a prop bet that would give him some incentive to grind some more. I didn't think going for SNE you would risk getting caught cheating in a stupid prop bet... Well, apparently I was wrong. People are usually more stupid than they appear to be. I should know that by now.

I probably learnt a lesson here and will hardly ever bet again in something like this, but it'd be a pity if prop bets like these completely disappeared in the future... Thanks to Gary&Roseeker.


In regards to what happens next and the various ideas that have come up. I obviously wouldn't mind getting more money out of this, lol, who wouldn't. But I'm not convinced if we should allow Gary/Roseeker to buy out without further consequences (in terms of outing them or not).

(To be completely honest, I'd rather they pay me something than seeing them outed, because I will never get involved in anything like this again and I'm already super cautious when it comes to transferring funds and stuff like that. But yeah, admitted, that's pretty selfish, lol.)

Also, those guys are almost definitely getting their accounts closed, I doubt they will surface the poker world again soon and try another stunt like that. So I'm not sure if this would "help" the poker community as such, it's more a question of how severe their punishment should be and if they should be made an example of.

It all comes down to whether or not they should be punished in "real ife", and outed as scammers on a website that pops up when you google their rl-names.

I'm not sure what to think of it myself, because a thing like that can really **** up your future... And I'm not comfortable saying that this should happen only because of their incredible stupidity (of trying something like that).


==>[Discussion of whether they should be able to buy out or whether they should be publicly outed] go.

Let me put up an analogy:
You make a bet with someone on athlete making a new record on 100m sprint.
Say athlete makes the record, but is found to be using some drug and is disqualified. He gets suspended by the athletes assosication and cant participate in events anymore (for like a year probably).

Does athlete owe you anything for you betting on him?

Gary was involved here as a better on 1 side and as a participant. As a better he went through with his part and paid his wager. As a poker player he will(?) get punished by poker site for cheating and whatever credibilty he had on 2+2 was lost.

I sure love me some ******ed analogies.

Why is it ******ed? Two betting events, and a guy competing gets disqualified for cheating.

Who is Roseeker? Is he the drugs?