07-24-2014 , 01:19 PM
ICM does take into consideration blind levels, what it doesnt do is consider future hands.
07-24-2014 , 04:02 PM
whats the point of blinds levels, ICM wise.. I dont see how this changes anything.
07-24-2014 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipya4dinna
ICM does take into consideration blind levels, what it doesnt do is consider future hands.
I agree with the part in bold. I almost had that as my 5th point!

I might have to assume ignorance on the 1st sentence though and you are probably smarter than me so you may have to explain further. The variables I use are hand ranges, my hand, chip stacks and payouts. It is entirely possible I am ignorant of how blind levels are incorporated into ICM other than implicitly through villain's having wider ranges at higher blinds and the accumulation of the higher blinds as a % of your overall chip stack (not sure whether I have answered this query already - slightly drunk!). I am not aware of calculations that take into account blinds as a direct variable.

http://www.pokerology.com/lessons/icm/

The sentence I found most interesting in regards this point was the paragraph "ICM Assumes Fixed Blinds":

"ICM calculates the number of chips you have divided by the number of chips in play to determine your equity, so it has no knowledge of this."

Quote:
Originally Posted by biood1
whats the point of blinds levels, ICM wise.. I dont see how this changes anything.
I still don't think you get it which surprises me for someone who is relatively successful at these things. I can only assume that you agree with the first couple of points I made at the very least because you haven't countered them at all.

After further reading (see above link and simple Google searches) to my own established opinions, and so as not to plagiarise, I will admit to adding further points as to it's defects.

1.The base assumption of the formula is that no player is more skilful than another (lol) and therefore if each player had the same 1000 stack on the bubble, they would each have an equal chance of winning. That is simply not the case. ICM cannot incorporate the elevated skill level that someone like you or I would have over a total fish in an ICM calculation in this situation. Each chip is of equal value, as all players have an equal ability to use it!! NO just NO.

2. It also undervalues the big stack - please see paragraph on "ICM Underestimates the Chip Leader’s Value". This is so undeniable, and is such a common situation, that I don't think you could argue that point either.

As can be seen from just one cursory search of Google and 2+2 you can find issues that can inform your play in regards ICM.

If you are smart enough, you will read and appreciate the above link and the points I have already made. If you aren't you will assume that ICM is the definitive answer to every play and that it has no deficiencies, as seems to be the case.

Last edited by streityboy; 07-24-2014 at 07:47 PM.
07-25-2014 , 05:20 AM
agree that ICM can show of values which are little bad because of future EV.
07-25-2014 , 06:05 AM
Quote:
The variables I use are hand ranges, my hand, chip stacks and payouts.
Quote:
I am not aware of calculations that take into account blinds as a direct variable.
You are calculating ICM as stack values for all possiible out comes of a hand. The out come of a hand is changed massively depending on blinds so you are using blind level as a direct variable.

As far as the article goes every limitation stated is based on not taking into consideration future hands with out actually saying it. We are basically looking at ICM and saying if i fold my \$ev will be x, if i shove after all possible out comes my expected \$ev stack will be y. If y is larger than x ICM says shove. However we may be in a spot as a smallish stack and we can calculate shoving as being -\$1ev so we should fold right? But when we fold it might be unlikely to see a hand better than -\$1ev due to blind increases / Being on BB soon so in actual fact taking a -\$1\$ev is the most +ev option for us. Vice versa being a big stack taking a slight +ev ICM call might come at cost of giving up the big stack and missing more +ev spots in the future.
07-25-2014 , 06:41 AM
^^this - the main limitation of ICM explained clearly

Also some shoves that are -EV can put you in a position to make more +EV shoves in later hands which a basic ICM calc wont help you with. (most applicable in holdem)
07-25-2014 , 09:32 AM
O8 is a super complex game to figure out in any format. Thats what makes it such a great game. A solid understanding of ICM is an important factor in improving your game and making decisions but certainly not the only one.
07-25-2014 , 09:34 AM
I played like **** the last 2 days and still won both days. Its nice to run good
07-25-2014 , 09:37 AM
I'm in for 9k games in August....Whos coming with me?
07-25-2014 , 12:20 PM
psht... only 9k, this guy calls him self a reg.
07-25-2014 , 12:28 PM
10k Sounds better.
07-25-2014 , 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnniewalk
10k Sounds better.
haha I agree but Im going to miss 3 days for a softball tournament and possibly a 4th for recovery so I didnt want to aim for too high of a goal.

10k must be an average month for you haha... I never see you not playing

Also how is Mexico life?...I have had a few thoughts about going down there for a few months to fade the cold of canadian winter.
07-25-2014 , 01:51 PM
in for 12k games. not sure If I miss that as I'm moving to malta on the 1st august. Can't be a no-lifer there.
07-25-2014 , 02:01 PM
got tomorrowland on full blast n gunna start a grind.... this is the life
07-25-2014 , 03:32 PM
can someone explain icm to please? i really don't know how it works!

thanks!
07-25-2014 , 04:20 PM
alex alex
07-25-2014 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hake110
can someone explain icm to please? i really don't know how it works!

thanks!
players from scandinavia, russia, and brazil are not allowed to consider ICM

if you're in germany, we might be able to make an exception, will have to check
07-25-2014 , 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnnaturalDisaster
haha I agree but Im going to miss 3 days for a softball tournament and possibly a 4th for recovery so I didnt want to aim for too high of a goal.

10k must be an average month for you haha... I never see you not playing

Also how is Mexico life?...I have had a few thoughts about going down there for a few months to fade the cold of canadian winter.
the ballas like you Juicy rave about Cancun/Playa Del Carmen
07-25-2014 , 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by biood1
in for 12k games. not sure If I miss that as I'm moving to malta on the 1st august. Can't be a no-lifer there.
12 k would be an impressive feat. GL on getting it done and GL with your move to Malta...It seems like it would be a cool place to live.

These kids be going hard these days...Wadzon where you at?
07-26-2014 , 10:28 AM
ye, I'm only going there for 1-4 weeks, I used to live there for 3 months 2 years ago, cool place for poker players !
07-26-2014 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnnaturalDisaster
haha I agree but Im going to miss 3 days for a softball tournament and possibly a 4th for recovery so I didnt want to aim for too high of a goal.

10k must be an average month for you haha... I never see you not playing

Also how is Mexico life?...I have had a few thoughts about going down there for a few months to fade the cold of canadian winter.
I have never made it to 10k games. Hopefully this month, I'm close to 7k now.

Mexico life is great! I miss the grocery stores and restaurants back in the states. Other than that, beach life is the good life.
07-26-2014 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by biood1
in for 12k games. not sure If I miss that as I'm moving to malta on the 1st august. Can't be a no-lifer there.
Not sure I can pull off 12k games, I'm taking a vacation in August. I'm in for 5k games in the first 10 days of August.

What is the most you've played in a month so far?
07-26-2014 , 06:07 PM
would be nice to see lots of volume next month.. i might join ya n go for 5k. hopefully run better then this month
07-26-2014 , 08:13 PM
what are your guys veiws on shoving/calling with A2XX in first two blind levels, ovbously posistion and what the other 2 cards are just count too just seems very standard at the lower buy ins not sure if its common at the higher stakes?
07-27-2014 , 05:26 AM
I decided not to teach anymore without getting money

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