haha Just keep being a hater all your life quantum....It looks good on you. My adjusted roi in hypers over the period of that graph is over 6 while 12+ tabling. I really doubt there are many if any other players able to do that and I doubt you could even do it 2 tabling. Dont even talk about 18 mans because they are the softest games on the net post the introduction of hypers. I played them before and after hypers were introduced. This is not the first time I have played them. The truth is anyone who can beat hypers will crush 18 mans.

I play a laggy style but its because I can. Others might get crushed trying to play like me but with my understanding of equities and my understanding of how others at table play and react to me I am able to do quite well and the fact that you even question me is pretty laughable considering the volume of O8 sngs I have played in the last 3 years.

Very impressive results biood and Juicy!

haters gunna hate!

Exactly. Especially the bit in bold.

And to prove the point, here is a hand I played earlier at an 18 man against a reg with 15k worth of winnings at SNGs according to SC (Koceboce). He even has a shiny diamond star against his name wtf .

From the comparison between the two formats, I believe that the 18 mans i) don't adjust their hand ranges according to decreasing BBs ii) Do not exploit ICM and the bubble nearly as much as those that play hypers. This is the fundamental difference and is the reason why Juicy tilts Quantum.

In this hand, if the dude shoves, I cannot call my hand. Yet when he raises, he calls with a hand that is profitable post flop at low blind levels, but is a terrible, and I mean terrible hand all in against a shove as wide as 40%+. His hand is either a fold straight off against competent villain's with stacks in the blinds, or a shove for fold equity. If he min raises, or limps, as seems to be the case quite often at 18 man FT's, he is opening himself up the type of shove that I made.

To avoid being exploited by my shove, he has to a) call off as light as he did here with hands with bad all in equity, b) shove to avoid being exploited, or c) actually adjust his range to be tight enough that when he min raises he can call it off with strong enough all in equity.

Needless to say, I was flabbergasted by the call. I remove these sorts of hands from my range at FT's in almost all situations. I would not be raise calling this hand and prefer the other two options stated in the above.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation[/URL]

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
4 2 A 3	52.56%	242,288	244,262	2,727	319,214	1,632
K 5 K 2	47.44%	212,327	353,011	2,727	8,891	1,632

or actually

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation[/URL]

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
4c 2h Ad 3s	48.15%	370,417	373,279	4,833	579,616	2,916
Kd 5d Kc 2c	51.85%	411,854	707,896	4,833	16,092	2,916

3533/8216 (villain's calling/pot) = 43% equity needed

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation[/URL]

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
4c 2h Ad 3s	42.94%	143,705	175,831	28,006	239,879	65,721
23%	57.06%	233,479	396,163	28,006	7,199	65,721

I am not sure you understand what I was saying!! We always play against ranges, not specific hands. You also need a far bigger equity edge to produce a +ev ICM result than a 52:48 even if he is priced in on chip ev after his initial raise.

Against a range (I am not actually shoving 40% lol) and just to illustrate the point above, the correct use of PPT's sim table would indicate just how bad a hand this is all in:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Ax2y3z4w	46.70%	175,498	199,702	19,222	265,707	42,397
40%	53.30%	220,547	381,076	19,222	8,564	42,397

For him to raise call ICM wise, my guestimate would be that he has to have late 50s equity wise. If my perceived range was as low as 20% he has to have the minimum of a top 5% hand, at which point, I personally would be shoving anyway with fold equity and the additional 10% boost to my stack size. This should not be underestimated, and is something I think most 18 man regs I have seen don't really understand. Hyper players get this, and don't get caught up with post flop play in short BB scenarios.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
20%	43.82%	154,778	247,965	29,450	115,607	54,364
5%	56.18%	226,198	322,585	29,450	139,574	54,364

Equities are not relevant here only ICM is and its a bad call.

Here's the addition to my last post:

This is because villain already invested substantially. Sure you shove less than 23%?

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation[/URL]

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
Kd 5d Kc 2c	51.88%	216,270	339,094	4,737	104,421	10,100
23%	48.12%	191,909	256,169	4,737	204,345	10,100

It's close.

I think the main thing with having an ace is that it lessens probability the other guy has one, or especially a pair of them. You could have been against aces, btw.

ICM-wise you may be right though, that is, in a normal game that isn't a hyper

Plaaynde. Please PM me if you don't understand what bak and I are saying/need some help with understanding ICM/this spot !! ICM doesn't just apply to hypers !!!!!!

This is my graph for O8 sngs since Jan 1 2012. If you include my sng stats from before that I have close to 100k w rb in O8 sng profit. Sick heater right

Quantum your graph is nice but its mostly soft 18 mans and the hypers you have played there is no way you have not ran hot. You have a 5% roi in hypers when you are probably in the long run a 1% player at best. Play 50 000 hypers and we can start looking at your hyper stats. 5% would make you pretty much the best at hypers. Do you really think you are better than Bokkie, Angribob and I?. If you believe that I gtd you are the only one.

It's fine him min raising if he can fold to any1 playing semi normally but he couldn't so yeah if he's going to play the hand just shove.

If I were in his spot i'd shove if I thought I was likely to get shoved on whether it be aggro players in the blinds or if I am seen to be opening a lot and especially open folding.

If otherwise i'd say min raise/fold is fine and still have 17 bb. Not a hand you want to be called from a 20 bb shove by most players but especially a tight/solid player.

Is quantum making a fool of himself again

yes

BS and BS. As someone who has been playing those games quite a lot, I would say they are tougher than ever. Maybe some of the very best players only play occasionally now (like personal, bid23biz, coldbryan) but the fish are much stronger than they used to be. And obviously I run amazingly bad in everything but especially in hypers.

I like bob and bokkie. Ask them who they think is best if you are so concerned. One thing for sure though is that you are barely top 20. You have no comprehension of how incredibly lucky you are. Rarely do I see you win games that you would win @ EV equilibrium.

I wouldn't say I'm "the best" at any format but I am dam good in all. The only format u thrive in is the world of shove-tard idiots and the only reason u do well there is because of your luck.

And yes I am a hater but there ya go

Jimmies are seriously rustled itt.

Oh and this, omg. Sometimes u talk a good game on here juicy but you are such a hypocrite. You chide ME about being over-aggro and risking my tourney life early then I watch you shove all day long, utg in level 1, with A 2 4 6 and just auto-bot it from position 24/7. Understanding of equities my ass. Understanding how others play? My ass. One thing you NEVER acknowledge is that if the field played the same way you did, it would be ****ing carnage. All you're doing is playing a slot machine by shoving all-in from everywhere, stacks don't mean **** to u man, don't like to me. You just shove it regardless in ALL situations. Equities LOL. How you working out those equities when you're a short-stack, holding rags and playing 12 tables?

Sure you have been successful in sngs and congrats for that. I would rather see you win than johnnie, hun, bull, grampadonk, lukro, bleu, you get the idea. I'm just disappointed in you because you've played A LOT with me, janiosmo, bokkie and still play a completely different shove-tard style.

don't really think the difficulties of beating HT's is more or less difficult than other formats like 18 man's cash mtts. They all require different skills and some skills will overlap over different formats.

Most exclusive HT players will suck at deep cash and MTT's due to poor post flop skills. They should adapt to 18 mans easily as there are more overlapping skills required as range assigning and ICM are important factors. Just like a good 18 man player should adapt quickly to MTT's and HT's.

Many good/long time regs have played and beating all formats. Some will be better than others in different formats. Personally I think 18 mans would be the easiest for me to have a consistently good ROI and overall they appear to be the softest format in O8 but i don't think it has anything to do with some regs moving to HT's.

They don't have hardcore high variance like HT's and super fast play which tilts the life outa me and I have good enough shoving range and ICM knowledge along with good post flop play from playing so much cash and MTT's that i will get loads of post flop +ev spots versus soft players.

Next time i am busto which will most likely be soon i am going to play 18 mans as long as there is enough traffic when i can play.

Seriously what world do you live in because its certainly not the real one. 18 mans tougher than ever hahaha that is just a silly thing to say. BTW Im still number 1 on that leaderboard. You say you have run amazingly bad in hypers despite having a total roi of 5% which is higher than all the best guys. Are you here trying to tell us you are a 10% player in hypers. That would be almost impossible at 15+ and thats what you are claiming despite the fact that you clearly dont understand ICM, or pre flop Equities, those being the 2 most important things in Hypers. You also dont use a hud or even seem to have a pokertracker of any sort. I doubt you work on your game that much when you are not playing due to having a job or whatever so tell us why should we think you are soo good. You must have that god given talent for hypers I guess...not likely.

Show us some EV graphs that actually show you running bad. No that will never happen because its not actually true. You are just delusional about your skill level and what running bad actually is. I will bet you any amount you want that if you ever reach 50 000 hypers played that your total roi will be under 3. I have actually took the time to analyse your hyper game in the past using pokertracker and you are just not that good.

The main difference between me and you is everything I say on here is based on factual data and can be backed up with ev graphs and 70k hypers played where everything you write on here has no real merit as you never provide us with anything real. Every post you write makes you sound more silly than the last. Nobody gives a **** about how bad you have run because you have never posted anything that would make us actually believe you. You want so bad for everyone on here to give you praise but why would anyone do that. You do nothing but insult people and complain all day so even if there are some strange people out there that think you are good at hypers they probably wouldn't publicly give you credit anyway. The fact that it upsets you that people you have never met in real life congratulated me on a graph I posted shows just how weak of an individual you are. Do I really matter to you that much? I honestly dont get the obsession you have with me or any other player for that matter. Its seems like an awful waste of brain power. I certainly feel like im wasting my time replying to your post but sometimes its hard not to when you bad mouth me on here every chance you get.

What's the point of harping on day in day out about how good jj runs.

fwiw i remember when i was playing HT's JJ would just run lol good v me day after day with his tilty laggy play. And from what i saw was running good in general.

It was pretty tilting as he was at almost every table i played but i just guessed that he was on a massive run. He did say that he was running way below ev earlier this year.

I think you need to start understanding how close O8 equities run and as HT's are generally flips then you either run good or run bad and variance will be super high.

I think you summed things up pretty well with that post...When I talk about 18 mans being soft its due to the fact that currently there are not a lot of regs in them period so the average level of player compared to hypers is going to be and is a lot lower. If you look at 2012 you had waltiph, angribob, macr0s, alpha, bid23biz, bogdaniel, bokkie, lev_gold, vanou, hammr playing them regularly. Most of those guys no longer or barely play 18 mans anymore and have not really been replaced by anyone new accept for angryjuice oh and the superstar Quantum. Of course this also means that 15s and atm even 7s are close to dead which makes 18 mans despite their softness not the best option for making money in the long run but certainly the best option for someone new breaking into O8 or someone with a low bankroll.

yeah if i was coaching or advising beginners what to play it would for sure be 18 mans as you can acquire a decent balance of skills that you can apply to move onto other formats. And as you say jj many of the good regs that were consistently playing them a Cpl of years back have gone although that does mean not much traffic in the 15's and 30's. But that doesn't matter for most beginners.

Yeah he just does not get that everyone who plays hypers in the long run will go on big heaters at times and also big downswings at times. Its frustrating playing with someone who is on a heater but its just part of the game. Its not going to last forever. Im running well atm but I also lost 4k+ in a week playing hypers earlier this year so its not like I always run well. With Quantums avg buy in in hypers he really has not had any significant downswings so far. The most is like 1300 which is nothing in hypers. I have had days where I have lost 2k+ so its pretty funny for me to listen to him whine about running bad everyday. He just has no idea what kind of variance hypers have and if he played them everyday he probably would be a lock for ending up in the asylum

I ran at 43% ROI in those 18-man games during the previous, "era of greatness", when literally only 50 players knew the rules and were on stars. Nowadays I'm 20%. I haven't gotten any worse so, field must have gotten better.

I know you have bigged up waltiph here in the past. I call him walter at the tables and think he's worse than you. Macros? He plays like you, enough said. Alpha and angribob are both still on the count leaderboard in 2014 and lev gold is 1st. Lately many posters here (like 1016, bleu, omahaha etc) have played a few games and personal still plays. Whatever, main difference is the field is way bigger and the absolute worst 3-4 players are much better than they used to be.

What best guys? You mean you? And 5% is FAR from amazing.

I said here before that with neutral running I would make 10% easy in hypers. With your running I would make 20%.

Uh huh. I could teach you how to use an HUD if you like. I never use mine for OH8 these days. Notes and memory are better plus give me stats not available on the HUD. Fascinated to see how your brain works tho. If you can hit 12 tables simultaneously and absorb, what, say 1000 variables (12 per villain on HUD, plus your own cards and table dynamics, not forgetting regging for games, closing old tourneys etc) in real-time and act within the shot-clock, wow, you must be like rainman. Unless your HUD has subliminal coding that forces you to shove all-in, you are so full of ****.

Ya know I like to keep it simple. If I have the same or more chips than villain and keep getting all-in with the best cards, I feel as if I'm playing well and the villain is playing badly. If a villain tells me he's not that bothered whether he's ahead or not, well, again it's not so much that I'm amazing, I just look good in comparison.

This I like. The reason I joined 2+2, if you care to remember, was to give you and wadzon a piece of my mind. I kept complaining at the tables and YOU actually told me to save it for 2+2, SO, I was under the impression that's what this place was for - trash talk. Certainly that's what I use it for LOLOL. Kidding. I don't care what anyone thinks of me or my game, especially not the posters in this thread. All I wanted was to KNOW that you guys were receiving my thoughts and that I was thoroughly disgusted with your play.

Yes, the fact that the people worship a false god troubles me. Last thing I need is an army of juicy acolytes giving verbal declarations of SB all-ins before the game has even started.

I disagree. By FAR the best format for noobs is hyper-turbos. The 18-man games are generally terrible for complete idiots because they can't play that many hands and cash before being punished for their mistakes.

In a HT you can get away with 2-3 mistakes and maybe even win the game because of them. Like you said, equities run so close with pre-shoves in OH8, so give any idiot any 4 cards and let them shove, maybe they win. Lord knows that's what juicy does. The bigger the fold window for the better players, the less likely that style of play will succeed.

For sure 6-max HTs are at one end of the skill scale, with slow-blind mtts and cash games on the other. 18-man SnG and turbo mtts are in the middle.

I doubt it. Especially not for tilt-prone ones. And they must know some hands are better shoving with than others, even if it's only some percents. It's those percentages that separate winners from losers. And there are no books on hypers. Not learning post-flop skills in O8 must be a mistake in the long run.
You are probably right. That's why I'm playing them. I want a game right now with not too much thinking.

juicy doesnt have me in his top players range, feeling a bit bad right now

Sorry Quant but simple maths means that 18 mans cannot be harder in terms of regs.

I have never seen an 18 man when I play them with more than about 4 or 5 half decent players. I would say the average is often less than this. This would equate to less than 2 decent players in a 6 man. There are always more than 2 regs in every hyper field.

I agree that the 18 mans have got tougher, I too used to enjoy 40% plus lol - my average more recently is mid to low 20s - that is still exceedingly high in comparison to hypers. This is not solely down to the format of hypers having an extreme emphasis on small equity edges, because the FT at 18 mans on or near the bubble is about this too, but the sheer weight of fish in comparison to regs.

Please feel free to stop this back and forth and comment on the hand I posted above (now maybe 2 pages old!) that IMO emphasises how even diamond star regs have a lot to learn from those that play hypers.

Sorry for interrupting the trash thread with some sanity