I suggest it be poker stars or someone announcing the deal is done. With full details

Tho I'd prefer if they just come tomorrow.

I need my ****ing money. MY being the key word

A bank deposit would not be a better analogy because there are specific laws covering bank deposits, but there are no specific laws that differentiate depositing on a poker site from a generic loan.

Hiowever, a bank deposit is a good enough analogy. I guess you are going to be surprised to discover that a bank deposit constitutes a loan to the bank.

The DoJ has been quite clear in their assertions that the money is not the players' money, and the judge seems to have agreed with them, because he has already dismissed a claim on funds made by a player.

What the DoJ has said is that FTP has an unsecured debt obligation to players; i.e. it is a loan.

But that's a false choice. It wasn't Ray or Howard and Chris. Any competent board would have
a) Removed Ray as CEO (even if they may have needed to leave him around as a consultant in some other capacity due to his unique knowledge)
b) Brought in qualified experts to assist in a sale, bridge loan, or other funding to get the players paid and keep the company alive

Don't forget that the board themselves was hugely conflicted (as they all later became subject to civil forfeiture action). They all should have stepped aside. But certainly, none of them, Ray included, had ever dealt with a situation like this before and they had neither the expertise nor connections to get a deal done that could have saved the company.

Why would they trust that the guy whose gross incompetence got the company into the mess in the first place was competent enough (and motivated enough) to get them out? And if he kept all the company's problems from them prior to April 15 and covered them up, how could they trust him at all to be truthful and forthright going forward?

I say motivated enough, because his interests may not have been aligned with the interests of the company or the players. His first interest was most likely to save his own ass. Which might mean burying any misdoing. It also might mean only dealing with people who he was very close to and could somehow get a sweetheart deal with to protect himself in some way. Granted, getting the players paid would most likely make his situation somewhat better, but that's not entirely clear that that would be his primary motivation.

"Full Tilt was not a legitimate poker company, but a global Ponzi scheme,while insiders lined their own pockets with funds picked from the pockets of their most loyal customers while blithely lying to both players and the public alike about the safety and security of the money deposited with the company. " This is what DOJ said.

According to your definition, seems all the money a person really owns is the cash in his wallet or under his pillow? Because his deposit in a bank, a brokerage or a poker site just doesn't count as his money anymore according to your theory.

Bringing in someone from the outside requires opening up lots of information--i.e. the evidence of all the crimes that you've committed--to someone new.



Plus, when considering the actions of HL/CF, you have to remember a few things:

1) They're completely irrational. Saying "Well, obviously they would be smart enough to.... because they ran a huge company" doesn't apply because these people are idiots.

2) They're huge scumbags.

3) They're delusional.

Some of the strangest things that I saw early on in my FTP investigations were e-mails amongst the higher-ups that they were sending around before finally releasing the press release that I pressured them into that admitted that they were insolvent and tried to justify it, etc. Howard kept insisting that it was unprofessional to release a statement. He kept saying something to the effect of "We shouldn't do that because we're a company and we need to behave like one." It made no sense and was surreal to see.

What's amazing is that these same idiots somehow managed to hide huge amounts of money from the DOJ. I mean.. Ferguson did so just by keeping an account in PK's name and sending a bunch of money to his buddies from it, which apparently was sufficient.

Banks and brokerage firms are governed by law. In most cases poker deposits were not governed by any local law but only by the phoney baloney licensing countries who clearly did not enforce or oversee casinos in a way that makes them legitimate places to deposit money. That is the case to this day.

In the US bank deposits are backed by the FDIC providing 100k of insurance on an account.

What is funny is people think their money is safe on stars which is a silly thought. All we know is stars did not steal enough player deposits that they were able to pay back us players, nothing else.

Actually having deposits of large sums on online poker sites right now without your own government regulating it is very stupid right now. There are lots of stupid people out there as demonstrated above.

Thank you. The ownership fof funds was the issue I was addressing.

I'm not ignoring the representations made by FTP. I generally agree with your analysis, howerver it seems to me that the only sepcific obligation created by FTP's representations if they are made in good faith and are substantially true is an unsecured debt obligation. That seems to be the position adopted by the DoJ in its submissions to the court re the motion to dismiss Webb''s claim. When the representations passed the threshold test for civil fraud, they gave rise to the new charges in the amended compaint.

If you think that there is some other level of fiduciary responsibility that would exist in the case of deposits at FTP that would lie between an unsecured debt obligation and liability for fraud, I'd be interested in hearing the specifics, and your explanation of why it hasn't surfaced in the DoJ submissions. I'll point out that the DoJ specifically denies a bailment.

Remember, all this is in the context of a discussion of whether the DoJ has player money. Essentially, it does not. This does not mean that FTP has no obligation to players.

i didn't start talking about that, some posters indicated that i am a milksop not to come to vegas, and i only explained why i prefer to wait for them to come to my homecountry.

Solid stuff. I've been saying something similar but I think you're stating it more clearly than me. I've been calling the bunch of them incompetent all along. Any seasoned business person should've taken the above steps 2 years or so ago.

I'm curious: Do you mind saying why you've decided to start posting at this time?

That seems like an unfair of assessment of her posts.

This is simply completely wrong; the fact that acts were multi-jurisdictional is legally irrelevant to removal or diversity jurisdiction. The reason for diversity jurisdiction is to prevent prejudice against defendants in foreign forums.

If just one defendant is a resident of the forum jurisdiction, it is an instant win for a plaintiff objecting to removal. CAFA is the exception to this, which is why I would have the plaintiffs claims be individual state claims and not be a class action. If need be, the complaint could be by one plaintiff, with a large individual claim, asserting state causes of action, including punitive damages, against defendants who were residents of the state and bring it in state court.

The purpose to this is to get the action moving quickly (the defendants have slow rolled this matter too long) and to get a judgment non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. That gives them the potential of seeing their earning garnisheed for life and makes the involvement of the plaintiff or the plaintiff's representatives necessary in any comprehensive settlement.

That is what they said in a press release. It is not what they have said in any document filed with the court.

It is not just my theory. Do some research. The issue of control over the funds is signficant. Unless there is a bailment or trust, the ownership of money generally lies in the hands of the person who has possession and control of the funds.

When the funds are removed from an owners' control by illegal means, it gets a bit more complicated. However, a deposit made on FTP when FTP was not making false representations was not removed from the control of the player through illegal means.

tomorrow.

Thanks Noah. loling at this. Needed a good laugh. I guess Howard thought it was "VERY PROFESSIONAL" to not say a thing and continue stealing the players money. I think #2 and a few more choice discriptions I can think of right now but will not post here pretty much sums it up.

I'm not sure what you mean by "level of fiduciary responsibility," the nature of the fiduciary responsibility, and the obligations created thereby, could only be determined by a trier of fact after reviewing the representations and inducements. I've seen some of them but probably not all.

I understand and accept the judge's ruling though I am not impressed with the facts used for it or reasoning behind it. It essentially says: Because FTP violated its fiduciary obligation and promises to keep player funds segregated and secure from operating funds and because the funds cannot be traced to individual deposits; the funds seized by the USA are not player funds.

This makes the USA the beneficiary of FTP's wrongdoing, that should not be. I am unimpressed with the reasoning and the conclusion. I would appeal the decision. Since virtually all the funds FTP had came from players, it is hard to genuinely conclude that the seized funds are not player funds unless your motivation is to assist another part of the government.

WOW. So you are saying DOJ is even more stupid than these 2 idiots? DOJ is really so incompetent and powerless that they can't find the money these scumbags hid?

You omit the fact that FTP came to hold the funds in the manner that it did only by violating its fiduciary obligations. As FTP described it, the funds would be held in a collective constructive trust. Usually, the law will not let a organization benefit from its wrongdoing. I know the judge has rejected the constructive trust theory but I happen to think his decision is in error.

Gioco, We've seen time and time again that the DOJ and the courts don't consider money seized from poker sites,poker processors and E-wallets players funds.

Are you going to release any of the emails Noah?

TY for posting this

But, Diamond Flush - this is impossible. Are you forgetting the issue of what was actually happening the split second the servers went down?....Tournaments were mid progress, final tables were in the midst of being played, cash game pots were halfway through the hand etc etc. How does all this get reconciled? They cant just turn the servers on and have everyone who was playing turn up to play out their equity? What if you were chip lead in a big MTT when it went down? God knows how they will sort this, it is a big hidden liability.

As for the limbo withdrawls being put back into accounts have you actually seen this? I mean they promised this but never did it. At the end of June months later they STILL had not done it and I believe they knew early doors they were not going to pay and this is why it was not done. Certainly if they even cared a jot about their customers it would have been done before months had passed. This itself is a nightmare to sort out. Probably a reason it was not done was to make liabilities look less then they really are.

Also there are all the ROW withdrawls that were pending before Alderney pulled the plug, similar to the USA issue FTP were slowpaying all the customers big time before the licence got suspended, plenty of this money is in limbo as well, more hidden liabilities and more balances to correctly reconcile - have you actually seen that this has been done or is it just FTPs word you trust? Lol at trusting anything Bitar says lets face it.

hope the mods let this link stay... it sort of applies since full tilt was one of the few that worked on a mac.... this vid is awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njos5...e_gdata_player

The same way I admitted I can't yet verify it's true, you cannot, of course, say it's impossible.

I'm not forgetting anything that happened when the servers were pulled. In fact, the situation is similar to when it went dark for USA players on BF, and I don't understand why you think it would be any different.

"limbo funds" are the monies that were in transit, real or virtual, either to or from the players/site. To me, the obvious reasons that they weren't added back in to the account balances promptly were likely: 1. They were trying to keep the appearance that everything was status quo and then 2. They had no idea who received or didn't receive real money that was in transit so soon, since payment processors accounting was not immediately reconcilable either. They would have no immediate knowledge of what players actualy received checks or transfers, and which of those that did, actually had a negotiable instrument. This would be a long and tedious process. I do not know the answer to the tourneys in progress scenario, but I can only speculate that these would be handled according to the rules on chip chop/payments, same as any other time a tourney was cancelled midstream. I do not know if this was the case, just my speculation.

As for hiding liabilities, while I understand your concern, this is the whole point of any buyer's due diligence. What someone says is true doesnt matter until accountants can verify things.

I don't know why you think that ROW limbo funds would be different than US limbo funds. Yep, ROW withdrawals were mostly stalled too, everyone knows that now. Too bad more ppl didnt speak up at the time, only the ones that bragged about getting their withdrawals did.

I am not an advocate for FTP, I am just telling you what I was told. You may remember there was another "deal" that was almost complete in April, and these things had to have been addressed. I also was very clear in telling you that I had no way to verify that it's true, and that it will be up to all of us to see that the numbers are right when the time comes.

I did not get my information from Ray Bitar and I am not single sourced. If you think you have better information than I, please share it.

I am saying it is impossible for FTP to have 100% correct account balances for everyone because of the servers being pulled mid game time. There is just no way to correctly sort that easily that I can see - if it has been done then please enlighten me how . Plenty of hands got stopped mid turn card being dealt etc. People with equity in tournaments and all ins in cash games etc