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FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP) FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)
View Poll Results: Do you want the AGCC to regulate the new FTP?
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1,156 56.58%
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887 43.42%

06-13-2012 , 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard89
what i find weird is that I keep hearing that they were ONLY going to pay back $100 (or less) accounts and this covered 95% of all accounts--YET in the 30,000 (or there abouts) posts on this thread alone i have seen maybe 10 people say they have $100 or less on FTP, and have seen at least 100 (probably closer to 200--maybe more) people say they have well over that amount.
seems weird that the majority of posters in this thread are in the minority of people with accounts on FTP
I mean no disrespect, but don't you understand that the huge majority of former FTP players in the world never post on 2+2 and likely do not know it even exists. Your sample is way too small to rep anything except that those few folks who do post mostly claim they had big balances and they usually claim to be online winners also. Who knows what the real numbers are , but 5 to 10 % of players being actual decent winners on FTP does not shock me at all.
06-13-2012 , 03:04 PM
PROFESSIONAL POKER PLAYERS IN POSTING ON INTERNET POKER FORUM SHOCKER! News at 11
06-13-2012 , 03:08 PM
Of course there is zero chance that players get any good news during the WSOP. Why do you guys keep checking in hoping for news? You have a better chance of being struck by lightning.

Full Tilt proved how scummy they are many times already, but the final straw was when they started the poker stars PR blitz just as the Tapie bad news was about to hit the news wires.

You are dealing with the lowest form of life on the planet, and you think you are getting money back. C'mon, guys.
06-13-2012 , 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1nsight
what makes people think they were going to get their money from the GBT deal? From the way it sounded you were going to get a bonus in the amount of your money... lol how is this any better than going to some site and getting high rb%???? GBT deal was absolutely useless UNLESS the clearance rate wouldve been astronomically high
I'd take a bonus every day over nothing.
06-13-2012 , 03:16 PM
potleemit ur an idiot +1
06-13-2012 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by potleemit
Of course there is zero chance that players get any good news during the WSOP.
I'm always curious as to why anyone thinks the WSOP has anything to do with anything?

Last edited by KingKongGrinder; 06-13-2012 at 03:33 PM.
06-13-2012 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMB1
Why does it seem weird ?

If I had $100 or less...I really would not care, it would be a nice dinner someplace - but not really a big deal.

Instead, I have $2,400 involved and while it will not make a big difference in my life whether I get it back or not, I have been following this thread a lot more closely than I would have with $100 or less involved.

I just think it makes sense that the higher your balance the more you are invested in this thread since it seems to be the only real source of info at the moment as to what the final disposition of FTP will be.

--- If I had under $500 in my acct, I wouldn't read 2 of the million pages on this thread! I have 13-15k in there, and I come on here every other day or so to check to see if anyone has any "update". My worry is, no one here really has a clue as to whats going on or where things are... So even though I'm missing 5 figures, I still feel like i'm wasting my time!! fml
06-13-2012 , 03:32 PM
This has been stated many times before, but it can't hurt to say again:

If your only concern is watching for major developments, you don't need this thread. Any major developments will have a stand alone thread in NVG. If you don't see any FTP thread on the front page of NVG other than this one, then nothing major has happened since the last time you checked.

There's almost zero chance you'd miss a major FTP development by just looking at the front page of NVG - the major news threads take weeks to drop off the front page. If this thread is driving you crazy and the only thing you are doing is checking for major developments, you're driving yourself crazy for nothing.
06-13-2012 , 03:35 PM
Has it been confirmed that HL and or JF wants to play in the "Big One"?
06-13-2012 , 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KungPowNewf
Also I thought there was a thread where Shaun Deeb stated that he had a insider source that indeed Stars was buying FTP and paying back all players and trying to position itself to enter US market again? Did I dream that post? I mean he seems pretty creditable imo but can't find the post, maybe he just jumped on this rumor/level bandwagon?
that thread has been closed as it turned out Ray Bitar just shave his beard to purport to be Shaun Deeb!
06-13-2012 , 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RJ
This has been stated many times before, but it can't hurt to say again:

If your only concern is watching for major developments, you don't need this thread. Any major developments will have a stand alone thread in NVG. If you don't see any FTP thread on the front page of NVG other than this one, then nothing major has happened since the last time you checked.

There's almost zero chance you'd miss a major FTP development by just looking at the front page of NVG - the major news threads take weeks to drop off the front page. If this thread is driving you crazy and the only thing you are doing is checking for major developments, you're driving yourself crazy for nothing.
TY but I like being a masochist.
06-13-2012 , 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by exoendo
answer me this question.

What is better?:

Money?

-or-

no money?

?

All of americans paid back through remission, and the world paid back after a set amount of time of earning it back through bonuses?

-Or-

nobody gets anything?
False dichotomies FTL.

We don't know that the DoJ had enough money available for remission to pay US players in full. There is some indiction they don't have enough, and would not have had enough even if the GBT deal went through.

If the DoJ offers remission, they have to make it available to any quaified victim. Any ROW player who is not repaid in full by a date certain is as much a qualified victim as a US player. If the DoJ had accepted the GBT deal, it would have cut in half the funds available for remission payments to US players.

Tapie was only going to cover about 4% of all balances in the near term. Any amount paid subsequent was not really a repayment of balances but a rakeback deal.

The real decision facing the DoJ probably was:
to cut remission to US players in half, and pay the other half to ROW players, leaving all players short most of their deposits,
or,
abandon a deal which was going nowhere in exchange for a non-zero chance of a deal with Stars that would see everybody get paid in full.
If the DoJ thought that the chance of a deal with Stars was more than 2% greater than the percentage of all-world balances available for remission, choosing to take a chance on Stars was better than going for what GBT was offering. Please note that this might still mean that a deal with Stars is unlikely to succeed.

Last edited by DoTheMath; 06-13-2012 at 04:34 PM. Reason: probably
06-13-2012 , 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKongGrinder
I'm always curious as to why anyone thinks the WSOP has anything to do with anything?
wonder if it is because the WSOP is the biggest tournament around and so if I was to be investing millions of dollars I would be looking for an announcement around the WSOP while all the buzz is around and the excitment of the WSOP has people talking poker! THe WSOP is broadcast WORLDWIDE so the buzz and FREE publicity would be worth a fortune!

but then again that's JMO
06-13-2012 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard89
wonder if it is because the WSOP is the biggest tournament around and so if I was to be investing millions of dollars I would be looking for an announcement around the WSOP while all the buzz is around and the excitment of the WSOP has people talking poker! THe WSOP is broadcast WORLDWIDE so the buzz and FREE publicity would be worth a fortune!

but then again that's JMO
That's not really what I meant. I understand why PS would care, but the DOJ doesn't give one crap about the WSOP. We are already half way through June. If it was that important to PS, they would have pushed it along already.

Last edited by KingKongGrinder; 06-13-2012 at 04:47 PM.
06-13-2012 , 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond_Flush
Tbh, I've hoped for 6 months that readers have pondered this.

I cannot and will not speak for anyone else or another "news" site.
All I will say is that I am very comfortable with my sources, pre, during and after GBT.
I have not altered my parameters on what should be reported.
Thanks, DF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard89
what i find weird is that I keep hearing that they were ONLY going to pay back $100 (or less) accounts and this covered 95% of all accounts--YET in the 30,000 (or there abouts) posts on this thread alone i have seen maybe 10 people say they have $100 or less on FTP, and have seen at least 100 (probably closer to 200--maybe more) people say they have well over that amount.
seems weird that the majority of posters in this thread are in the minority of people with accounts on FTP
Well, I believe GBT said that the deal would repay 95% of accounts and DF said that that number (95%) that GBT provided, included players with $0 balances. So yes, there could easily be 3 million accounts (GUESSING/HYPOTHETICAL number) and 2,850,000 of the 3 million accounts had less than $100 in them (there has to be so many people who created accounts with no money or put $50 on, went busto, and never re-deposited). While the other 150,000 had more than $100, and potentially significantly more. Those with more than $100 are clearly more likely to follow this thread and read these posts. So assuming, arguendo, all 30,000 posts were different people saying they have more than $100, that could easily mean only 1 out of 5 people with more than $100 are posting, and something like 4.5/5 people with less than $100 are not posting.

Make sense, Wizzard? (Please don't raise an issue with the hypothetical numbers I've created here)
06-13-2012 , 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahSD
BTW, if anyone gets an opportunity to talk to Lederer, Ferguson, Furst, Ivey, etc, don't bother asking them when you're gonna get paid back, because they don't know. Don't ask them whose fault it is because their own self-worth is very tied up in that, so they're really not the right people to ask.

Ask them where their money went. Ask Ferguson what the hell he did with $70M that wasn't his (and why'd he lie and say it was "only" $25M?). Ask Lederer what he did with $42M that wasn't his. Ask Ivey what he did with $40M that wasn't his (and why the hell he won't repay his $4.4M in loans from FTP either). Ask Furst what he did with $11.7M that wasn't his.

Lederer, Ferguson, and Furst are all being sued by the DOJ with orders to seize their assets, so they're all very careful to say that they're broke right now. But, where the hell did the money go? That's a lot of money to lose in the pit.

Incidentally, Ivey's apparently in public playing WSOP events. So, seriously. Somebody ask the guy how he managed to blow through $40M in distributions and another $4.4M in loans of money that belongs to us.
Iveys doing pretty good in the $5k PLO8.

CL with 27 left and already ITM.

Might be a good opportunity for QuadJacks or any of you guys who are out there to ask him a few tough questions. Get a small tape recorder and say you are from a newspaper or something. Don't do anything stupid though.

I'd be interested to know when he will be repaying his loans and what happened to all the money.
06-13-2012 , 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omg sea monkeys
Iveys doing pretty good in the $5k PLO8.

CL with 27 left and already ITM.

Might be a good opportunity for QuadJacks or any of you guys who are out there to ask him a few tough questions. Get a small tape recorder and say you are from a newspaper or something. Don't do anything stupid though.

I'd be interested to know when he will be repaying his loans and what happened to all the money.
Ivey doesnt and wont talk to anyone even if he wins a bracelet, so forget about it, even when he won the 250K high roller in australia he didnt give an interview
06-13-2012 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RJ
This has been stated many times before, but it can't hurt to say again:

If your only concern is watching for major developments, you don't need this thread. Any major developments will have a stand alone thread in NVG. If you don't see any FTP thread on the front page of NVG other than this one, then nothing major has happened since the last time you checked.

There's almost zero chance you'd miss a major FTP development by just looking at the front page of NVG - the major news threads take weeks to drop off the front page. If this thread is driving you crazy and the only thing you are doing is checking for major developments, you're driving yourself crazy for nothing.
I'm so glad you posted this. Its very obvious this isn't the place for breaking news, yet everyday i read this topic and expect to learn something. And by the end of the day I remind myself not to read this topic ever again. Yet I seem to always come back and to read ramblings and the like. TY for clearing my clouded head. Back to not reading this topic.


sad to say that^ wasn't sarcasm
06-13-2012 , 05:58 PM
Why do people still worship Ivey? I just don't understand it. He took so much of our money, filed some weird lawsuit at a weird time that I don't fully understand and people still give him a pass. He wasn't just some paid pro who had no involvment. Screw Ivey.
06-13-2012 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweak24
I'm so glad you posted this. Its very obvious this isn't the place for breaking news, yet everyday i read this topic and expect to learn something. And by the end of the day I remind myself not to read this topic ever again. Yet I seem to always come back and to read ramblings and the like. TY for clearing my clouded head. Back to not reading this topic.


sad to say that^ wasn't sarcasm
Most people have never been able to take this thread for what it is.
06-13-2012 , 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atel2525
Why do people still worship Ivey? I just don't understand it. He took so much of our money, filed some weird lawsuit at a weird time that I don't fully understand and people still give him a pass. He wasn't just some paid pro who had no involvment. Screw Ivey.
i don't think anyone here thinks highly of ivey... just another scum degen.
06-13-2012 , 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath
False dichotomies FTL.

We don't know that the DoJ had enough money available for remission to pay US players in full. There is some indiction they don't have enough, and would not have had enough even if the GBT deal went through.

If the DoJ offers remission, they have to make it available to any quaified victim. Any ROW player who is not repaid in full by a date certain is as much a qualified victim as a US player. If the DoJ had accepted the GBT deal, it would have cut in half the funds available for remission payments to US players.

Tapie was only going to cover about 4% of all balances in the near term. Any amount paid subsequent was not really a repayment of balances but a rakeback deal.

The real decision facing the DoJ probably was:
to cut remission to US players in half, and pay the other half to ROW players, leaving all players short most of their deposits,
or,
abandon a deal which was going nowhere in exchange for a non-zero chance of a deal with Stars that would see everybody get paid in full.
If the DoJ thought that the chance of a deal with Stars was more than 2% greater than the percentage of all-world balances available for remission, choosing to take a chance on Stars was better than going for what GBT was offering. Please note that this might still mean that a deal with Stars is unlikely to succeed.


Also we need to remember we heard Tapie's spin on why things fell apart. We have not and may not ever hear the DOJ side of things. So people need to realize there was likely more to Tapie and DOJ fell apart than what Tapie has said.

No matter what the ps deal is not as simple as Stars just saying they will pay everyone back right away. That alone does not come close to resolving the DOJ issues.

It is unfortunate but not surprising the only people who have shown interest in buying FTP assets have been convicted criminals or people under criminal indictment.

If a real white knight had ever shown up I think the DOJ would have a much better time working with them. That being said no normal business person is going to put up the money for player reimbursement as FTP is worth only a tiny fraction of that amount.

At this point I could see the doj dividing up the limited assets they have and if they find a buyer selling off ftp software. This still probably leaves most people getting 10-20 cents on the dollar and I doubt any points or bonuses would even be considered.

The reality is that buying FTP is no better than a distant third for stars in their doj talks in priorities. As pure speculation if Stars could get to a comfortable spot civilly and criminally with the DOJ without doing FTP they would do it in a minute. I don't think Stars wants FTP, but is using it as a means to an end. That is why people hoping for stars to launch a new independent FTP seems unlikely regardless of outcome.

Looking back over info reported with Tapie we heard that the DOJ and Tapie had agreed in principle and Tapie had to negotiate with FTP. This never made any sense to me as FTP had no leverage. Yet this was the alleged status for months. We hear about player loans and then eventually things collapse.

Can any lawyers or judicial watchers explain how the prosecutors involved might handle/ announce things? If they agree with stars without anything to do with FTP would the doj announce a deal? In other words if stars and the doj sign off on the criminal and civil cases will the doj release it or will it just come out as a by product of court?
06-13-2012 , 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RJ
This has been stated many times before, but it can't hurt to say again:

If your only concern is watching for major developments, you need this thread.
best post i saw over last 50 pages lol

Away for week with kids in Florida
Read the new rules SGT. permission to beam aboard ?

Last edited by basement_; 06-13-2012 at 06:27 PM. Reason: forgive the missquote...rather read it this way ;)
06-13-2012 , 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoTheMath
People think that when players deposit money on a poker site, the money in their poker accounts belongs to the players. It does not.

When you deposit money on a poker site, it is no longer yours. You have just given away ownership of the money. At best, it is a loan.

None of the money the DoJ seized belonged to players. It belonged to the sites and/or the payment processors.

When you loan $20 to your buddy Joe, the $20 in his wallet (or under his mattress) is not your money, it is his. He is free to do with it whatever he wants, even though he owes you $20. If he gets fined $20 for littering, and the authorities take the $20 in his wallet, they are not taking your money, they are taking Joe's money. It is not illegal for Joe to spend his last $20 on cheeseburgers when he owes you $20.

People need to realize that when they deposit on a poker site, they are giving up ownership of the money they deposit. All they get in return is a chance to play poker, and the status of unsecured creditor. The poker sites are not legally obligated to hang on to your money. The terms of their licence generally require them to not spend the amount you have deposited (until they have earned it as rake), but license terms do not generally have the same status as criminal law.
I never post in this thread and I'm not sure why, but this is just wrong. It is my money. I have not loan ed it to them and your friend analogy is just wrong. The correct analogy would be a bank deposit. That is my money, not the banks.

The DOJ does have My Money and i want it back.

Cro
06-13-2012 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShipItYo
i don't think anyone here thinks highly of ivey... just another scum degen.
I think what's happening is that most everyone thinks very highly of him as a poker player; but it's hard for some people to separate that from what he does outside of poker (scum degen).

      
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