So, if Lusardi is found guilty, what about the person on the bubble? And for that matter anyone who busted just before a payout increase before he busted.

Seems like they would have a claim to the difference in payout, or am I off base here?

This would be a great topic in the other forums news-views-gossip. I would love to hear the basics of the case and the position of each side... can you post and see what people think.. it may help your prep for the jury trial!

Have you heard? The earth is round! (I know weird, huh)

Would table level accounting solve counterfeit problems, it may add a little time but as players come and go from tables, the number of chips at the table would be fixed. If player moved to a different table chips would be subtracted from table a and added to table b. At the end of the day Each table would have a total chip count, that should equal 0 when all chips at the table are subtracted from that number. If this was already suggested disregard

Dozens of chipstack countdowns per table at dozens of tables daily? People GROSSLY underestimate what a timesuck pain in the ass this would be.

BA:

pniwin or one of the other 26 finalists posted in an earlier reply that he had received an email from Borgata indicating they were "hoping" for some kind of decision and resolution from the NJDGE sometime this week. I suspect a decision may be some time in coming ...

This Lusardi fellow has managed to open a big can of worms. Due to the kind of issues you and the previous poster have noted, any new rules and regulations handed down by the NJGCB to prevent this kind of fiasco from happening again will raise the rake. (Requiring camera surveillance of every single table in large-field MTTs would raise the cost of doing business significantly. Other "security measures" - such as requiring RFID-embedded chips with a varying chip face for each tournament - will add even more cost.)

The state of New Jersey (and the Atlantic City casinos) are in a bit of a Catch-22 dilemma. They're going to have to dictate some additional security, but at what cost? The state of New Jersey has an interest in protecting the stream of tax revenue coming from the casinos. To achieve that goal, the general public has to believe that the games are square and on the up and up. If the perception takes hold among the public that MTT poker tournaments are infested with Lusardi's, gaming revenues (and the taxes derived from such) will fall, so something has to be done.

Competing against this objective are the operators who are surely registering their concerns about what enhancing the security of poker games - especially large field MTTs - will cost. (Matt Savage has already stated, on the Pokercast with Mike and Adam, that he thinks "the math" of the RFID idea will not work ... i.e. that such a security measure would cost too much.) Other operators around the country are surely weighing in with their concerns.

It will be interesting seeing how this shakes out and what "compromise" is reached between the regulators and the operators. Whatever decision(s) are reached, one thing is for sure. As Mike and Vince often lament: "The price of poker is going up." We can thank Mr. Lusardi and all his cheating buddies for that.

Any chance that they just say, "guy cheated, we caught him, prevented the tainted event from finishing, and this is proof the system works?" As a poker player, it seems there was some disaster. Also agree that other large field events could have always run about like this, and it could have happened many places. On the other hand as a regulator, might someone think that justice was done via arrest and that the controls in place have saved the day, as intended? This, as opposed to the tournament finishing and then it comes out that a cheater prospered, where they'd be forced to admit that something horrible happened.

I guess the question is: do the outside parties see this as a disaster event, or is this just due process and justice being done correctly?

this is exactly what I have maintained from the start. Best case for operators/system. That is exactly what they want to show. Everyone did their job, from borg to njdge to police. The rules, procedures and checks and balances worked, the lone bad apple was caught, and only the players lose when someone tries to cheat. Exactly what will be said imo.

That doesn't mean that some "improvements" will not be recommended, eventually becoming mandatory through what ever process is used. Then the casino's would likely have a few years to come into complete compliance with the new set of standards.

don't expect any reprimands or anything at all that makes the Borgata look like they may have been at fault. I think this will be pretty standard, business as usual.

Absolutely doug,

Nowhere does the Borgata promise or guarantee a cheater free event. If they are held to such a standard, they wouldn't agree to host an event or raise rake. Cheater found, caught and prosecuted. No big conspiracy or spy plot required to explain this.

As poker players we'd consider the event more compromised than that, and as a group we'd consider it a bad outcome?

Also though I'm asking the questions, I feel terrible for people impacted. I totally get that at least the final 27 feel totally crushed by this and having a potentially big score become a limbo situation is horrible/heart breaking.

It may be a timesuck, but it would make it easier to find which table had introduced extra chips. I would think it would also encourage players to keep stacks in easily countable stacks etc.

Seems to me the cheating was identified and the cheater was caught in a timely manner (same day). Even if you find a fake chip, you still need time to id who brought it into play. Obviously even harder if they use authentic chips from an earlier event or flight day. Expectation that the cheating is identified and apprehended in "real time" is absurd.

The only way I see a bad outcome is how they handle the 27. Take lusardis money, move everyone up, pay bubble. Do something for the other players like a freeroll. Icm the 27.

And they should use different chip sets for rebuy rentry day ones.

I don't think the remaining 27 will be satisfied with anything less than a ICM chop because they all had a shot at big money. If borgata doesn't do that, most likely the remaining players will take this court. Potentially all 27 asking for the top prize money in court because they all had a chance. ICM chop is only thing that would reflect their chance at the top prize.

I don't think the borgata will do anything unfair for the remaining players as they probably do not want any bad press from all of this. WPT championships is taking place there soon.

borgata knew cheating was going on Thursday they continued play all day. This is an issue I have with borgata. So Everytime fake chips are found they aren't gonna halt the event? This goes beyond the refund I want. They found at minimum 30,000 fake chips Thursday around 7pm. Just going to brush it off let it play out? Harrahs most likely called gaming enforcement when the chips were found in the plumbing system to hurt their competition.

The cheater and the chips were not found on the same day.

So now your issue is that you want your refund because they did not stop the tournament quickly enough even though you were knocked out before they knew of the cheating. As weak and illogical as everything else you argue.

This is one of those things I talked about several pages back where something bad happens and people frenzy up and yell OMG WHAT CAN WE DO SO THIS ONE THING NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN and then implement a solution with a completely horrid and absurd cost-benefit analysis. So now because of ONE scandal wherein less than 1% of the chips in play were fraudulently introduced, EVERY POKER TOURNAMENT going forward must be severly impaired just to make sure never again? It is not worth the time, effort or money to do this.

all of this

We have already discussed this. Literally no chance or legal argument for anyone except the chip leader to ask for 1st place money.

Links to any of this? Also, what is the baseline for when a tournament must be ground to a halt instead of allowing it to play while the investigation goes on? What if I go to a floor at the end of Day 2 and say "these guys were colluding"? Halt the tourney to investigate? What if a single counterfeit 100 chip is found at the end of Day 1C of the WSOP ME? Stop the tourney to investigate? What if I shove AA on the bubble and expose it so no one calls? Halt the tourney to investigate? Refunds to everyone who finished within 10 of the bubble?

I swear this thread is like Whack A Mole.

Don't feed the trolls please. He sounds like a guy that if he won all of the chips from the cheater knowingly and got caught later: He would say, "I won it fair and I'm keeping these chips." Stop responding to chipkatcher

^^^^ such solid advice. Wish i had some self control!

So your saying let it happen...seems reasonable.

No, he is saying don't get rid of automobiles because one crashes every so often and kills someone.. There were safety procedures in place, they worked. Maybe tweek them, but don't make us all walk or ride in giant bubbles because its safer.

they could make cars that can't crash into each other. they are extremely expensive, so they just "let car crashes happen".

they could put a lifeguard every 25 feet at every public beach. that is overly costly and burdensome, so they just "let drownings happen".

Your response is exactly the same histrionic response used to justify spending money/time in absurd ways. As I mentioned dozens of pages ago now, when the big F5 tornado hit Moore, OK, last year, unfortunately there was a direct hit on a school building and around 12 children drowned. A horrible tragedy. But now people are screeching that every school in Oklahoma needs a safe room retrofitted, capable of withstanding a direct hit from an F5 tornado, despite the fact that that event has occurred 2-3 times in Oklahoma history. MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars dedicated to doing that. How many lives will be saved on average with those millions? 0.1? How many lives could be saved giving that money to other causes to advance disease research, or provide food/clothing/shelter for kids with nothing?

But if we don't put those safe rooms in, we are "just going to let kids die".

I can agree with that. It would be interesting to know how often the chip counts are off at the end of tourneys...obviously this was an extreme case. A few extra chips early could change the whole tourney.

No I'm saying it's an issue that it wasn't stopped immediately it was stopped the next day when they knew the tournament was compromised.

So then your saying final 27 shouldn't be there if they won fake chips? How about quit calling me a troll. It's a legit issue the tournament wasn't stopped right away.

I don't think it would suck up that much time...most people can count their stacks in a minute or two...If that is to much to ask then the casino shouldn't implement it, and if they did and players don't like it then don't play. If they want to stop extra chips from making there way into a tourney then something will need to be done to verify counts. This dude was only caught because he was an idiot and thought flushing them would be better then say taking them to a trash can in another state. Safe ROOOOMS FOR EVERYONE...as long as they are padded.