I was typing a point by point reply to shane but realized it was useless. The issue isn't that I and others am trying to justify the behavior, I think (hope) everyone realizes it's wrong to use technology to get into a private game you weren't invited to. But people are trying to make this into a black and white issue, and comparing this to stealing chips off a table or actually superusing is absurd, and empathizing with someone is not the same as agreeing with them. I empathize a lot of with the guy who steals to feed his family. I still don't agree with them and agree they should be punished for it. It's also worth noting that jungle is getting a ton more hate than the guy who sold him the seat. I'd argue selling a seat to a private game you're invited to is far scummier than buying such a seat.

But just as I hope most of us haven't been put in the position where we fear our family starving if we don't steal, pretty much no one posting here has been in a similar position where we poured over a decade into becoming one of the best at a game and then found out that no one wants to play with you for high stakes if you have a reputation of a good pro and don't have political/social skills to get invites. It's definitely an entitled view (sorry being really good at a game doesn't mean you get to play with people who don't want to play with you), but the average reaction here seems to be that jungle is equivalent to a murderer when I would bet a lot of money that most here would make the same decision. Maybe not, maybe all of nvg would be like Koon and do the honorable thing, I just have my doubts that nvg is full of the most upstanding citizens.

I guess the way I see it jungle did something in the poker world similar to pirating music/movies, and everyone seems to be equating it to murder. It's still wrong, but he's literally been compared to stealing friends' chips off the table which is absurd.

Does anyone know who was involved in the games other than Jungleman, Bill Perkins and Bilzerian? and also how much $ Jungleman won and/or others lost?

Hi all,
I don't post much but do read the boards quite a bit and thought I would toss a comparison in to consider.

Lets say that during the Galfond challenge, that Galfond had someone helping him against Veninidi. Would the poker world blow a gasket and say that Galfond was cheating during the challenge by not following the "One man to a hand" rule?

Of course this would be considered cheating and Galfond would not hear the end of it, it would ruin his reputation and rightly so. The poker world that is watching the challenge rightly expects all players in the challenge to abide by the "One player to a hand" rule.

The above is only a comparison example and I don't think that Galfond would cheat so please don't take it that way. From what I've seen, Galfond is a stand up guy.

When I think of it in these terms, I have to think that ghosting is a form of cheating.

Great analogy. And not only that, it would have to be that Galfond did it in every one of the challenges actually, because apparently some people here believe that it's just part of daily life for some HS pros.

of course ghosting is cheating. who is arguing its not?

but @zachvac's post makes sense, punishment (reaction) has to fit the crime. there are no absolutes. Its not cheating or not cheating, black or white. There are shades if grey.

On a cheating scale of 1 to 10 .

1 being walking slowly with a short stack to the next table in a MTT because you see you will be in BB if you don't, 10 being Russ Hamilton godmode...

Where does Jungle ghosting in this situation fit? The uproar and build up by perkins made it sound like a 10. Each will put it where they will, to me its about a 5.

Ah, the Girah account, on lockpoker 2. *******s.

Not trying to be dumb, but when Phil Laak went in disguise to WSOP it was fine. Isn't that kind of similar? And if anything, the stunt was celebrated.

Just like damn near everything else in life MOFO's pick and choose what they think is right or wrong.

be guided by your own ethics and belief system

The only people that want things to be "fair"are those behind in the race.

Good point with LAAK. Of course, there wasn't a rule against it at the time.
I guess a difference would be that was anybody real;y falling for that disguise? I assumed people new it was a disguise - they didn't know who they were playing against, but they knew it was somebody who was hiding behind fake old man makeup.

Right and this why I do not understand people itt equating BP letting DB play on his account HU on a whim to jungle systematically playing on a fishes account.

In fairness to Jungleman some of these apps don't even have listed terms and conditions or terms and conditions only listed in Chinese. Who knows what they allow and don't allow, seems to change pretty regularly. Depends on the agent as well.

All those years of playing and I never heard of this lol. So let me get this straight: If I'm playing 100/200 on stars with Linus to my left and Trueteller to my right telling me what to do and I do all the clicking AND I stream the whole thing on twitch, I won't get banned?!? Pretty sick, thanks for educating me.

I don't agree with this part at all. I am not sure how good Jungleman is right now, but if he really is as good as you claim he can easily make 7 figures a year playing in regular live and online games vs weaker opposition. That's pretty much as good as it gets being world class at some sort of game.

He can also battle it out vs world class opposition if he wants to make more.

I do understand that it's annoying to not be able to get in juicy games while others can though.

Jungle's response via Twitter (in a Google doc):

"I'd like to address the allegations posed by Dan Bilzerian in this now deleted tweet.

I could not do so earlier due to legal advice and financial matters.

To be clear, I started playing with Sina (his last name is not Taleb, for the record) on may 8th and ultimately played very few sessions, none of which were against Dan Bilzerian as claimed.

I played very few hands against Bill Perkins, who sat in a game I understood was rampant with professionals who were ghosting. I thought since many on the site were using pros to play for them (which was clear by the uniquely high level of play) at the time it felt acceptable for me to be playing. Unfortunately Bill got caught in the crossfire and I'm very sorry for that.

While I don't think it's fair that I’ve been singled out for something many were much more guilty of, I accept that as a role model for the poker community my punishment should be disproportionate compared to a normal player. I hold myself to a high standard of ethics and aspire to be devoid of inequity, but I still make mistakes and am sorry for my actions. I will do my best to behave better in the future.

I'd also like to give gratitude to my friends and the people that supported me on the internet and other communications. Your efforts were vital to mitigating this situation and I appreciate your concern for me. Special thanks to Nick Schulman who contacted me to make sure I was ok and started the #Freejungle movement. If anyone else believes in my integrity and that I should not be lambasted over the internet, I would appreciate any support and will appreciate it especially if I know you. To those who attacked my integrity, I forgive you."

Cliffs = "Everyone else was doing it."

This scandal is boring. This is why you need a Haseeb Qureshi in every poker scandal to just deny everything, write 4,000 words and claim to quit 2+2, and come back for more every two days.

lol no wonder the Hs community defended Jungle - sounds like a bunch of them took Perkins to the cleaners.

LOL.

Just because something isn’t explicitly prohibited doesn’t mean it’s not cheating and/or unethical. If that were really his defense and if he believed it was a valid reason, he would have stated it already. He knows it’s underhanded.

Had to google him for the laugh.

He is now a Managing Partner at Dragonfly Capital

https://www.dcp.capital/team

https://www.linkedin.com/in/imhaseeb/

What he did was clearly cheating and immoral but I think the "meh" response from the community has to do with how wary players already are about something being fishy about a high stakes game and the offense is relatively benign. A good player playing on a different account is so prevalent and the game is still fair which is most important. An immoral act of deception in a game of moral deception but at least the integrity of the game is maintained.

I'd put ghosting a FT and sharing hole cards as both worse/significantly worse though in this ghosting case the harm is more isolated/more personal so can produce more aggrieved victims? I want to be clear I'm not trying to defend the action at all.

Yeah for sure what he did is either cheating, unethical, or underhanded. Or all three. Or none.

It’s not none. It’s all three.

Is this guy delusional? What a half-assed apology. Admits he was cheating then he forgives people that attacked his integrity even though he absolutely deserves to have it attacked.

The only unethical thing he did was get caught