How would ppl go about the recreational sitting in a live ring game and getting real time help on their mobile by the pro? still borderline?

And: how would it be different to using a real time solver in that game?

most concerning of his post is his misplaced gratitude to Shulman for starting the #freejungle movement. Nick did not. I did, much earlier in this thread. Clearly my posts in NVG carry more weight in poker world then some lame twitter account from Shulman.

I have completely changed my views on the whole matter.

#freeblizz he is my new hero.


eff jungle

At least he forgives us. I was feeling bad about our role in this scandal.

People still play this game

In other news, Bernie Madoff forgives those who attacked his integrity.

Big Jungleman fan normally but that statement is Dominic Cummings-esque.

Jungle has just forgiven the veterans of the Allied Forces for storming the beaches at Normandy.

This is what he came up with after 2 days? It's very poorly written.

Unfortunately he got in the crossfire? Sounds like Jungle was trying to play with a bunch of pros, all of whom were ghosting, but unfortunately there happened to be a recreational player in the game that was unexpectedly not being ghosted. Guess Perkins didn't get the memo.

Good idea. Throw your friends under the bus.

I always assumed he had?!?

unironically this

Or the "meh" response is due to Jungleman already being a known scumbag due to the Girah scandal. Scumbags doing scumbag things is akin to dog bites man. It just isn't news.

I would say it's probably more so the opposite, unless you are talking strictly jungleman high stakes aquintances from within the games themselves who already disliked jungle and aren't surprised.

Seems most people really like jungle and since its a very common / 'forgiveable' questionably scummy thing he did most people don't really care. Worse things happen in the poker world daily. Also it is hard to feel pity for very rich multi millionares who are super outspoken and polarizing such as bilzerian himself but also seemingly perkins with all the negative responses to how he handled it.

If someone came out and said jungle straight up scammed 500k and ran or was super-using many people would be outraged.


Still curious if who perkins was originally talking about' name ever comes out / list of all the guys who jungle alleges were ghosting or if jungle will be the only one who has his name thrown into the public for feasting on in this

Nah, it's still news. It's just not as big as what was anticipated, mostly because of the build-up.

Serious question for everyone: what would be the most appropriate next step for Jungleman in making this right? Returning the money? Giving it to charity? Outing other players involved in the same behavior? (I see pros and cons for each... again, actually asking here.)

We often see (or hear or read) someone's public apology, whether it be in poker or in some other arena. But rarely does it follow with some act of contrition, which bothers me.

And by act of contrition, I mean something genuine and authentic, not Ricegum handing out fake Amazon gift cards.

Nothing, I don't think he owes anyone anything besides a sincere apology to any of the 'whales' he considered friends he might've betrayed in the games. The guy who got jungle to ghost him / play on his account on the other hand could def owe money and much more than an apology to his fellow players in the private home game who trusted him to be the one playing.






If theres multiple / 'many' pros who were ghosting in the game why should the only person who got randomly outed by bilerzian (who then deleted his tweets) be the one to face penalties, especially when presumably the entry point wasn't the pros begging a whale to let him ghost.

It was very likely whale(s) in the game trying to get a edge by getting pros to 'help' / ghost. The whole thing feels so hypocritical to protect these whales because perkins/bilzerian prob still wanna play with them and have a chance at winning money off them if they aren't ghosted in future etc



edit:

Dude was involded in a big cheating scandal (Girah), which already says a lot about him tbh. But lets face it - young people with a lot of money at stake can do stupid things.

Now ~10 years later, potentially many many millions richer, and a lot more mature he again gets caught. And this is why it is in my opinion much worse than the things he did when he was 20.
It isn't life-changing for him anymore. It's simply just him and the way these people live their lives. Yet still he emphasizes in his statement that he holds himself to a high standard of ethics.

MillionS?

Guess it could be a pretty big sum then!

Prob one of my favourite tweets in all of this

How the hell is the fish (thrilled to play with whales, trying to avoid the sharks) in any way a bad guy?

It's clearly unethical. It's about as close as you can get to cheating without actually superusing/team play.

What a weak apology from Jungle. "I thought it was a bunch of pro's pretending to be rec fun players." If that were the case and he didnt want any fun players in the cross hairs, why would he want to play that game?


They closed the game to invite only for a reason. Jungle was targeting certain player(s). It's possible he is having money problems and not as well off as we are led to believe.

Sent from my LML713DL using Tapatalk

Pretty sure the point he's making is that none of them are bad or good

Everyone wants to gain a edge. No one is bad or everyones bad. edit: or as sum1 above said , its a middle ground and no one is strictly good or bad in this scenario


Fish bumhunting the whales
Whales trying to regain edge with pro ghosting/helping (bumhunting fish back)
Pros helping via the ghosting bumhunting the pool

bro theres is cheater around the world bro brazil never cheat brazil numba 1

Thanks, I didn't understand it because I just see it very differently.

I think this is another disconnect. Many people itt seem to think his second best option to this game would be some 100/200nl game with some tough players and some fish and only make a few million per year. In reality his next best live option pre-covid was high roller mtts with super small edges against the top players in the world and maybe a fish or two and then maybe playing something like 10/25nl or mayyyybe 25/50nl? Even those types of games have moved more towards private/home games where it's tough for pros to get in. There was a 50/100nl game a few years back that ran around Hellmuth and I was friends with the guy running it so I initially got offered a seat, but then more fish than he thought wanted to play with Hellmuth so I got bumped. You think jungleman is getting into those games? There are a few casinos where 10/25nl or 10/25/50nl runs on weekends, but even pre-covid were those running regularly enough to play them for a living and clear 7 figures? I'm in the US and only know of US sites but I don't know anywhere public you can regularly get a game above 10/20nl online, and even those games never run until a fish sits which can often be spotty. If I had to guess jungle's ev (without ghosting into games like that) I'd say it's maybe mid 6 figures? Maybe I'm wrong and it's closer to high 6 figures? But I'm extremely skeptical he can play enough hands high enough to have an ev anywhere near 7 figures.

Again I think people massively inflate both the winrate (in money) of top pros as well as their net worths. I could be wrong if some hsnl pros want to correct me please do, I don't know anyone quite on that level. But I'm basing this on the people I know who are maybe a step or two down from the people being mentioned itt. And based on what I do know I'd be surprised if any top pros are regularly making millions per year without playing in private games like this one, whether they're invited or ghosting.

No he can't, there's a reason Galfond has to offer odds on his challenge, again I mentioned Doug above, remember when he was considered the best in the world after beating Ike and Sauce? How much action did he get after that?

Cliffs:

a. Poker player caught cheating turns over a new leaf, becomes well liked top 10 pro.

b. Years later, makes a public statement attributing his success to morality and integrity.

c. Shortly after, gets caught cheating again.

d. Makes another public statement, forgives people who caught him cheating.

Is that about right?

+1