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Old 10-25-2016, 12:20 PM   #1076
Howard Treesong
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Hellmuth can be fun to play with at times. Certainly not always, but he is much wittier than Kassouf, if even just as self-absorbed -- although in a different way.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:32 PM   #1077
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Kassouf says the same dip**** lines in the ept with the same act.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:36 PM   #1078
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainJail View Post

Kasouff is good for poker and t.v. If we want to see a renaissance in the game to bring more recreational players in, we need more players like Kassouf, not more "pros" wearing hoodies, sunglasses, and headphones sitting in their seats like statues.
You're just dealing in extremes. Both are bad.
Christiforou shone out for me as an example of the type of person poker needs more of - A happy go lucky kind of attitude. Someone you'd be perfectly happy having a beer with. Someone who is genuinely interesting.
He handled both himself and Kassouf extremely well.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:38 PM   #1079
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
Kassouf says the same dip**** lines in the ept with the same act.
Given that's the case, it shouldn't bother any so called poker professional.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:41 PM   #1080
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

I am terrified by the amount of people who are more interested in criticizing the SJWs than in looking at the situation.

Seriously. If Benger had said "Consider things from other people's perspective" instead of "check your privilege" (which means the exact same thing in this context), very few people would be criticizing him. Kassouf was annoying, Benger is telling him that he is annoying even though he isn't breaking the rules. Benger's account is 100% accurate and most people agree with every part of this characterization.

But wait, he used a term that you associate with SJW. Privilege. THEREFORE, it's against freedom of speech (lol?), Kassouf is the good guy because he is politically incorrect (lol?), we need to defend him to show that we aren't part of the SJW group to this community that clearly holds no love for SJWs (btw, isn't that called virtue-signalling? Cause I thought that was a bad thing)...

Anyway, propagandists have done a very good job. A much better job than I thought they would have. Like I said, kind of terrifying, and kind of depressing too.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:48 PM   #1081
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBlow View Post
You're just dealing in extremes. Both are bad.
The increase in viewers for this years WSOP would say otherwise. The more eyeballs, the greater interest. And if Kassouf's table talk is able to turn a mildly interested poker fan in to taking action by entering a tournament or cash game, I see no problem.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:50 PM   #1082
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by DBurg View Post
A table with felt stretched taught across its surface.

Nine or ten chairs, maybe comfortable, maybe not.

A dealer, female or male, doing a job, quietly and with the aid of a ten thousand dollar (hopefully) random shuffling machine.

Nine or ten individuals occupy said chairs:

A landscaper, toiling in the sun, wind and rain five or six days a week. Slides ten thousand dollars into a makeshift cage to take a shot at taking the chips of the other individuals peering across the taught felt, a shot at millions of dollars. The landscaper has broken a hand when a rock fell from a truck being unloaded, slipped and tore a knee to shreds on the side of hill, while planting trees on some millionaires property, and gets to see his or her three children for an hour or so each night. Tough, thoughtful, hardworking, brings a quiet but hard demeanor to the table.

A banker, wealthy and set for life, used to shutting out the rest of the world in order to find tiny, fractional inefficiencies which to exploit to advantage. Kids go to expensive private schools and vacation in Spain and Barbados. Sits on the boards of multiple charities and philanthropic groups, which meet in high-end art galleries and restaurants. The banker brings studied knowledge of numbers, psychological manipulation and a ironic dual understanding that the ten thousand dollar entry fee can earn millions, but won't be lost should the kings and queens conspire against.

A gambler, lost to the thrill for years, hasn't seen family or friends in... Thrives beneath the lights, breaks from the felt filled with spinning reels and rolling dice. Knows the cigarette break may be his last, a balcony eight stories up providing a possible end if the ghosts of chance go south for the twentieth time. Forty-some years old, maybe older, and hoping every moment for that one score that drags his sole out of hock to the devil inside. Ten thousand dollars bet, borrowed and stolen, each penny another notch cut from weakening heart.

A teacher, summer break can't arrive fast enough. Two big tournament wins, each a chop of the mid-westerner's local casino's two hundred and fifty dollar buy-in Sunday Extravaganza has provided two thirds of the ten thousand dollar entry, the other third out of pocket. A child on the way, one last grab at life changing money before summers will be filled with diapers, and side jobs to save for children's college.

The pro, comfortable in a high rise just off the strip. A pool to swim in at night and exercise room thirty feet from the elevator door. Travels the world playing the circuit and bloated cash games. Ten thousand dollars is an entry on the accountants ledger, the price of doing business. The pro knows the tourney director, the dealers and is being railed by a handful of expectant fellow specialists. Supposed to win, the pro never wonders otherwise.

The young pizza maker, works odd jobs, often for tips, plays at the plush east coast casino. The pizza maker is taking a shot, not rolled properly, no back-up plan and no cash in reserve. Two hometown local grinders own a piece of the pizza maker's action, recent results on-line and live point to breakthrough in the biggest series of the year. If things go well, the significant other will join the pizza maker for the sweat of a lifetime, and maybe, just maybe they will move permanently to high-rise just off the strip.

These players and many more fill the seats at the tables covered in felt. Some will sit quietly, some will argue with their table-mates and the spots on the thin cards. Some of the players will jump from their seats when they win, others will slowly collect the pot and stack the chips. Some players will be able to talk others out winning calls, or into losing calls.

One thing's for certain, they all expect the casino to deal a fair game. They all expect to run head-long into humanities swirling cauldron of emotion, muscle, deception, elation and heartbreak. Deep down, they don't want new friends or someone to hold their hand and pat them on the head. They want to take their opponents chips, all of them. They want eight million dollars.

And, really, really deep inside, inside a place most of them will never understand, they want to get as far away as possible from the codified, paved, timed, insured, institutionalized soul shriveling modern world. Those fifty-two cards, felt and chairs are a place our very souls need, like a month in the wilderness, no guarantee of survival, the ancient brain takes over.

Poker needs to be this way, for our very sanity. It shouts out for the mind-benders, the bluffers, the talkers, the flippers and the gripping life reaffirming angst. That friendly banter, "Good game." "Well played." "Bad luck." That stuff is the bull#^* veneer covering the terrible game of survival we all hope for deep, deep inside each time we sit down.
nice writering
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:55 PM   #1083
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by osefiwin View Post
I am terrified by the amount of people who are more interested in criticizing the SJWs than in looking at the situation.

Seriously. If Benger had said "Consider things from other people's perspective" instead of "check your privilege" (which means the exact same thing in this context), very few people would be criticizing him. Kassouf was annoying, Benger is telling him that he is annoying even though he isn't breaking the rules. Benger's account is 100% accurate and most people agree with every part of this characterization.

But wait, he used a term that you associate with SJW. Privilege. THEREFORE, it's against freedom of speech (lol?), Kassouf is the good guy because he is politically incorrect (lol?), we need to defend him to show that we aren't part of the SJW group to this community that clearly holds no love for SJWs (btw, isn't that called virtue-signalling? Cause I thought that was a bad thing)...

Anyway, propagandists have done a very good job. A much better job than I thought they would have. Like I said, kind of terrifying, and kind of depressing too.
If you expect everyone to always be nice to you, you are going to be disappointed. The world doesn't work that way, some people are annoying/ prejudiced/think differently to you. Taking a victim mentality causes more harm than good for you and everyone involved.
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Old 10-25-2016, 12:55 PM   #1084
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLNHDONKWP View Post
srsly? How deep?

edit: on tube already

Confirmed Kassouf is being cold-decked by TD's around the globe! LOL
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:01 PM   #1085
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

The reality is , k guy is playing his role , and the other players reaction is equivalent to his actions , it is just like he says A and others say B , but he is the one who looks miserable , not them .
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:05 PM   #1086
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by _jimbo_ View Post
If you expect everyone to always be nice to you, you are going to be disappointed. The world doesn't work that way, some people are annoying/ prejudiced/think differently to you. Taking a victim mentality causes more harm than good for you and everyone involved.
People aren't either "complete dicks" or "always nice to you". People are people. People are capable of changing. People should aspire not to act like dicks. It's not a high bar to set to ask that when someone has been signified a zillion times that they are acting like *******s by 30+ different people, they should have the basic decency to try and change their behavior. And if they proudly don't, it seems logical to get mad at them or to call them out.

Who's the biggest victim, the person who reacts negatively to being treated badly, or the person who bows their head because it's always going to be this way and they can't change it?
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:06 PM   #1087
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by _jimbo_ View Post
If you expect everyone to always be nice to you, you are going to be disappointed. The world doesn't work that way, some people are annoying/ prejudiced/think differently to you. Taking a victim mentality causes more harm than good for you and everyone involved.
I'd like to add the unpopular opinion if there was a person who truly brought down equality in poker by taking a victim mentality, it was Stacy Matuson. She's not a pro, but the way she handled it should be of great embarrassment to any woman poker player and feminist. When you play the role of a damsel in distress where there is no real danger, it shows a lack of character. Stacy should take lessons from Vanessa Selbst in the way she handled Kassouf - she just ignored him like a real professional would.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:16 PM   #1088
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by osefiwin View Post
I am terrified by the amount of people who are more interested in criticizing the SJWs than in looking at the situation.

Seriously. If Benger had said "Consider things from other people's perspective" instead of "check your privilege" (which means the exact same thing in this context), very few people would be criticizing him. Kassouf was annoying, Benger is telling him that he is annoying even though he isn't breaking the rules. Benger's account is 100% accurate and most people agree with every part of this characterization.

But wait, he used a term that you associate with SJW. Privilege. THEREFORE, it's against freedom of speech (lol?), Kassouf is the good guy because he is politically incorrect (lol?), we need to defend him to show that we aren't part of the SJW group to this community that clearly holds no love for SJWs (btw, isn't that called virtue-signalling? Cause I thought that was a bad thing)...

Anyway, propagandists have done a very good job. A much better job than I thought they would have. Like I said, kind of terrifying, and kind of depressing too.
I don't want to derail but you are incorrect on the standard academia definition of the term "check your privilege". The term means to reflect on the institutional ways that your social status might have given you an advantage while the social status of the person saying it (or group you may be discussing) has had a disadvantage.

Benger used the wrong incorrect term and is now getting slagged off for it. Using terms to sound cool when you don't know the true meaning does more harm than good to the cause you feel you are protecting. In this particular case I think GB just blew up without very much thinking.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:17 PM   #1089
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

People saying poker needs more kassoufs are ****ing delusional. He makes the game less fun when he's sitting at your table. How is that going to help poker or bring more amateurs? You think a casual fish wants to sit and get badgered by kassouf for hours while trying to learn the game? so lol.


Poker needs more people like Phil Hellmuth. He's a brat, but he's actually entertaining, good for TV and makes the table more fun to be at.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:23 PM   #1090
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Quote:
Originally Posted by osefiwin View Post
People aren't either "complete dicks" or "always nice to you". People are people. People are capable of changing. People should aspire not to act like dicks. It's not a high bar to set to ask that when someone has been signified a zillion times that they are acting like *******s by 30+ different people, they should have the basic decency to try and change their behavior. And if they proudly don't, it seems logical to get mad at them or to call them out.

Who's the biggest victim, the person who reacts negatively to being treated badly, or the person who bows their head because it's always going to be this way and they can't change it?
The person that tells a grown man to check their privilege. Nobody is bowing their head.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:23 PM   #1091
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by goobenstein View Post
I don't want to derail but you are incorrect on the standard academia definition of the term "check your privilege". The term means to reflect on the institutional ways that your social status might have given you an advantage while the social status of the person saying it (or group you may be discussing) has had a disadvantage.

Benger used the wrong incorrect term and is now getting slagged off for it. Using terms to sound cool when you don't know the true meaning does more harm than good to the cause you feel you are protecting. In this particular case I think GB just blew up without very much thinking.
Benger isn't criticized because he chose the wrong word to describe the situation, he's criticized because of the word he chose regardless of the situation (exhibit A: jimbo's post right above). Hate of perceived SJW concepts trumps analysis of the actual situation. I think that's a problem.

Apart from that, the content of what we said is the same, you've just assigned blame differently.

Last edited by osefiwin; 10-25-2016 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 10-25-2016, 01:36 PM   #1092
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

And even if he's a douchebag - and Kassouf was most certainly that. Quite possibly the douchiest in Clark County, which would place him high in the runnin' for douchiest worldwide.
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Old 10-25-2016, 02:33 PM   #1093
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Unfortunately haven't had the chance to read entire thread, but I wrote up about Will Kassouf adding some of my personal experiences with him that adds a little bit when examining his actions:

Benger was pretty embarrassing to watch. Us "SJWs" have it bad enough without this poorly timed soundbite you know. Hearing that he hadn't even played with Kassouf much before kinda of exemplified the stereoype of SJWs jumping down people's throats without much research. I assure you this happens with every demographic, and he's probably just acted impulsively, which is easy to do when lots of money is on the line and you feel like someone's being extremely disrespectful, but the second hand embarrassment is real.

As someone who does care about social issues and the like I do want to voice that Benger's word choice probably wasn't the best and not just in terms of getting trashed on by people on the internet, but also because it slightly appropriates a phrase with certain specific connotations for a situation that isn't quite right. Like it's not quite wrong either, but I read someone comment that it's funny talking about privilege as some white guy getting onto final 2 tables of the ME, having had the money to play to begin with. Privilege is used to dissect for more significant issues in specifically STRUCTURAL discrepancies in power dynamics.

Now POTENTIALLY Griffin Benger is commenting on Kassouf ALLEGEDLY getting a woman near tears, which he might have heard from others. That's a reasonable situation to say check your privilege. The interactions shown in the recent few episodes, however, are, I think, not appropriate and in fact I think it's somewhat disrespectful that Benger used it to describe that situation. I don't believe Kassouf has any structural power over the other pros; if anything, those pros have the structural power (as better regarded regs and Americans in an American cardroom). The only power Kassouf has over them is he doesn't have any shame and is a huge tool, but that's a personal thing, not a structural one.

Anyway onto the real point

Quote:
That said I can confirm from personal experiences that Kassouf's speech play is often even worse than depicted; he probably reined it in because he knew he was being watched.

He's had dealer, then floor tell him to stop talking multiway (saying things like "oh you look and then bet? look and then bet?" etc after someone bet in 3way pot, read people's hand ranges multiway etc), 5+ times, and after he finally got asked to leave the casino for the day, he tried to defend himself saying "I just didn't know I didn't know" guy's been playing poker 6+ years of course he knows, he's just trying to bend the rules, and he tries to say "okay I won't anymore" so stupid, he's been warned 5+ times and only after they threaten and kick him out does he say he'll stop?

So what I mean is he possibly is worse than he is shown to be, and also motivation wise, he definitely is not innocent or "never would do anything wrong". He frequently break rules when possible. The issue is that he might not have broken any concrete rules in the coverage.

Of course, not listening to the floor person's ruling is in fact breaking the rules; being disruptive to the players after being warned is breaking the rules. Whether we like the floor person's rulling or not (I do, as someone who's played with him), it IS in the rules for him to listen.

Some explanation as to why I like the ruling:

Lots of people are fans of him, says he's trying to make poker fun again. Please understand watching the antics on TV is very different from playing with him. It gets stale real fast, and the thing is he's not just talking to people who wants to talk, he talks at brick walls, and OMC over 70s who can't hear him properly and slow the game down. He joined our PLO game with a stupid short stack with his "in for the minimum out for the max" spiel, take pictures for his stupid facebook group and instagram, which is all fine, but he ruins the game by making it <12 hands an hour ( sometimes less than 10, that might seem impossible he plays super loose in PLO so he's in every pot and tanking every spot; if he were DECENT and slow, then at least he can only tank so often, 1.5x a hand at most, but he was in every pot and tanked EVERY spot, as you can see in coverage, regardless if he has actual decision).

It's ridiculous but he's got to be some 100+bb/100 loser at the game and yet nobody would want him in.

You want to talk about making poker fun? How about not making it so 70+ year olds get pissed off by being asked questions rudely (even if you argue no raised voice, it's clearly rude to talk to someone when they don't want you to talk to them; on public transit this would be harassment; do we really want to encourage behaviour on poker tables which in other public spaces would be called harassment?), makes people want to quit games. Other old guys who don't care also become less active. They go to sleep because they don't get to play a hand. These guys are old, get tired when bored and nothing keeps their interest (f k maybe I'm old but I felt like falling asleep too waiting for him to be done too). They want to PLAY POKER, they want to SEE FLOPS, but they can't if their plan to peel big raises pre with junk then c/f flops ends with them waiting another 10+ minutes before the hand is over.

People are losing their money and trying to lose the rest of it or get unstuck, and he's making it impossible. If I am some rich tilted whale who's ready to spew off, I'd leave the table and go to roulette or join another table. It's so ****** bad for the game it's insane.

Of course, we don't just ban people because they are "bad for the game", but he's doing in a way that is disruptive, rude, and unpleasant. It has a very real effect, it's not something that happens to cry babies, as I hear people talk. F ck, maybe it is, but only in the sense that most poker players are cry babies. Bro, we're paying 200 pounds an hour, we're paying for the experience we want, one which involves more hands than when playing with will kassouf, and one where people aren't intentionally agitated and asked stupid questions repeatedly.

The thing is there's no winning. If you don't answer, he'll keep asking and asking why you aren't saying anything. If you answer, you'll get him to speak more. There's absolutely no way to stop him, and everyone will get angry at you for presumably not doing the right thing to stop him, and it makes everyone angry.

That's why I kind of understand the woman who got him the round penalty. It seems really stupid she's responding to him at all instead of making her decision without talking to him, but the way he talks he eggs you on and tries to get you to respond, and I can see how many people, especially recreational players, get upset and respond when indeed the best tactic is to ignore him (as most regs do). It's rude, nasty, and preying on people wanting to be fun and not having be grilled. Now you can argue that's like saying check-raising shouldn't be allowed. Sure, but at some point we as a community agree that check raising makes poker more fun. I want people who've had to deal with kassouf tell me genuinely that having a kassouf on every table you play poker at for the rest of your life is a good idea and makes poker more fun.
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Old 10-25-2016, 02:36 PM   #1094
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Kassouf and Benger


Last edited by normanyates; 10-25-2016 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 10-25-2016, 02:55 PM   #1095
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Not yet mentioned but the lower skill players benefits from slow the pace down. That seems like the case kassouf played to losse preflop and the field from the last 30 was clear better and with more sound fundamentals.
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:29 PM   #1096
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

re: laddering up

I noticed that WK waited a bit and looked at the other tables before calling the AI for the 25k chip (which was classic btw).

are they not going hand for hand?

and since this guy was nice enough to stall for a minute, why did Dinosaur shirt guy not shake his hand?

seeing GB lose on the FT will be almost as good as seeing 5th grade Bleznick get ousted.
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:35 PM   #1097
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by BrainJail View Post

Kasouff is good for poker and t.v. If we want to see a renaissance in the game to bring more recreational players in, we need more players like Kassouf, not more "pros" wearing hoodies, sunglasses, and headphones sitting in their seats like statues.
Wrong !
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:35 PM   #1098
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

Its made the NY Post lol.

http://nypost.com/2016/10/25/nasty-f...of-poker-hand/
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:40 PM   #1099
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Wrong !
Go on....
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Old 10-25-2016, 03:54 PM   #1100
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Re: "9 high like a boss"

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Originally Posted by BrainJail View Post
Go on....
Read Sol Readers post a few above. It's sums it all up perfectly.
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