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01-30-2013 , 04:37 PM

#6176

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33 Big Blinds

You haven't been playing poker in Florida for very long have you? The Seminoles have repeatedly broken laws for profit, I can only imagine what they do with the jackpot money.

Thank you PX for keeping up on this.

I play at THR about about 6 weeks per year, for the last 5-6 years.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 04:44 PM

#6177

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by BirdofPrey

Good point.

Although I'm highly skeptical that anything of consequence will result from the "independent" investigation by the investigator on the tribe's payroll, I appreciate your efforts and all who play at THR should appreciate them as well PX, thank you!

I think you are confused. The investigator works for the Seminole tribe. That is different than the National Indian Gaming Council where the complaint was filed. My understanding is that the investigator will report back to the tribe (who hired him), and then the tribe will then respond to the National Indian Gaming Council.

FYI, I am the one who did the research on this to determine where a complaint could be filed with National Indian Gaming Council (which I posted previously), after I kept hearing claims that the Seminole casinos in FL were "unregulated." As noted, they are regulated by Federal Government, but not the states.

All I am saying is to wait until the Seminoles respond to National Indian Gaming Council, and then what action the Council takes, before jumping to any conclusions about what will come of this inquiry.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 05:18 PM

#6178

PokerXanadu

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10,583

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger_888

Maybe it's just the semantics, but I still maintain that the Seminole cardrooms are "unregulated". For one, they are not subject to any state regulations or gambling laws. They are supposed to comply with federal regulations, but they are "uinregulated" by the feds as well, in the sense that there are no regulators actively inspecting the cardrooms and enforcing federal regulations.

For instance, if they were regulated by the Florida Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering in the same manner as the pari-mutuel cardrooms, they would have to submit all their internal procedures to the state regulators for approval. Any changes in procedures would also go through an approval process. And, from time to time, regulators would visit the cardrooms for inspections, as they do with the pari-mutuel cardrooms.

As far as I can tell, the only time the feds do anything in regards to the Seminole Indian cardrooms is when there is a complaint. Other than that, it is left to the Seminole Indian Gaming Council to enforce federal regulations (even though the tribe has not as of yet been awarded a federal certificate for self-regulation).

So, while there are federal regulations that the Seminole cardrooms are supposed to meet or exceed, such as the handling of jackpot money, there are no federal regulators doing actual regulation of the cardrooms.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 05:25 PM

#6179

BirdofPrey

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 272

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger_888

Some might say that I'm dazed and confused in general, not in this case however. The investigator works for (and is therefore paid by) the tribe so "independence" in this case is a relative term. As 33BB already astutely pointed out to you, the tribe has had questionable dealings in the past. There is tried and true saying that where there is smoke there is often times fire, hence the reason that PX took the initiative on this.

Regulated vs. unregulated is also a relative term, the NIGC may be looking into this, depending on the findings of the "independent" (paid by the tribe) investigator. Years ago tobacco companies hired investigators to investigate claims that their products were dangerous and addictive. In a shocking twist of events these investigators, paid for by big tobacco, produced reports stating that their products were safe. Independent auditors paid for by Enron certified and reported that Enron's financials were accurate despite many claims that there were shenanigans going on, and amazingly things didn't turn out so well. Sometimes the fox guards the hen house and this is not really regulation.

I really don't believe that you understand the tribe's history, but feel free to comb back through this thread as there have been many posts with links to some of their dealings. Also Google is your friend if you desire to learn more.

Last edited by BirdofPrey; 01-30-2013 at 05:41 PM.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 06:25 PM

#6180

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by BirdofPrey

The reason why I think you are confused is because the independent investigator is not independent, since he was hired by the Tribe. No one claims he is independent. He did make a comment to PokerXanadu that he has no vested interest in this, but his investigation results goes to the Tribe, and not the National Indian Gaming Council. The Tribe has hired this guy (instead of having someone inside the Tribe) to report back to the Tribe on what the facts are, but only after that will the Tribe respond to the National Indian Gaming Council. Then at that point, the National Indian Gaming Council will look at the Seminole Tribe response and make some sort of ruling. This whole thing about whether the investigator is independent or not is a complete red herring.

The independent auditors for Enron (Arthur Andersen & Co) audited the Enron financial statements and signed off on them as "fairly representing the financial condition of Enron." Because of the fallout of Enron collapse, Arthur Andersen (founded in 1918, having 2001 revenues in excess of $9 Billion, once having 28,000 employees in the US and 85,000 worldwide) now only has 200 employees left. It is hard to argue that Arthur Andersen was not severely punished (not to mention the multi-billion dollar fines they paid).

As it turns out, the US Supreme Court reversed the convictions against Arthur Andersen:

"On May 31, 2005, in the case Arthur Andersen LLP v. United States, the Supreme Court of the United States unanimously reversed Andersen's conviction due to what it saw as serious flaws in the jury instructions. In the court's view, the instructions were far too vague to allow a jury to find obstruction of justice had really occurred. The court found that the instructions were worded in such a way that Andersen could have been convicted without any proof that the firm knew it had broken the law or that there had been a link to any official proceeding that prohibited the destruction of documents. The opinion, written by Chief Justice William Rehnquist, was also highly skeptical of the government's concept of "corrupt persuasion"—persuading someone to engage in an act with an improper purpose even without knowing an act is unlawful."

The basic problem with Enron was that they engaged in very risky business practices which lead to their demise. It is true that they used some unusual financial reporting methods (at first objected to, but ultimately approved by Andersen), but those financial reporting methods in question were actually legal (due to Congress passing certain laws), even if they were stupid. That is one of the main reasons the criminal conviction of Arthur Andersen was overturned. If it were not for the friendship of G.W. Bush with the President of Enron, none of this would have gone any further than just another company which folded because of poor business decisions. But because of the politics of the situation, anyone associated with Enron has been crucified.

At no time did I say that the Seminole Tribe has followed the rules over the years. All I am saying is that we should let the National Indian Gaming Council investigation follow its course, and don't confuse the investigation by the Council with the investigation by the guy hired by the Tribe (they are completely different).

Last edited by Roger_888; 01-30-2013 at 06:49 PM.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 06:45 PM

#6181

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

As has been noted, Indian tribes are not under the jurisdiction of state governments (usually, but there are some exceptions depending on the exact Tribal Reservation). Historically, the Indian Reservations were considered sovereign nations that the US had treaties with, but that has changed over the years and Indian Tribal lands are now more like US Territories (under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government, but not the states). Indians living on reservatons are now US Citizens with the right to vote in Federal Elections, have US passports, are required to register for military selective service, etc.

So the issue of state regulation is moot, since (like Washington DC) they are not governed by states.

With regard to active regulation (regulators going around and making sure every rule is followed) versus passive regulation (they have published regulations, but rely on someone filing a complaint), that is not uncommon. Most US laws and regulations do not have someone going around and checking up on them to make sure they are followed. But if someone files a complaint, then someone should be available to follow up on it, as appears to be the case in this situation.

I understand that states (or at least FL) has more comprehensive and active (instead of passive) regulation compared the National Indian Gaming Council. If you want that changes made to Indian Gaming regulation, contact your US Congressman and/or Senator and let them know how you feel. Not sure it will be high on their list of priorities, or that they will want to spend more federal money on this, but you never know. But there is no legal or sovereignty issue here, it is just a matter of what Congress wants to do about it.

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01-30-2013 , 09:14 PM

#6182

EVgame

stranger

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 14

I'm thinking about coming down here for a couple of weeks in early April, plan to play some of the WPT events but mostly 2/5NL or 5/10NL, maybe with some PLO in there.

What times are the games running/good? I'd like to play during the day and spend time with friends or exploring the area in the evening.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 09:47 PM

#6183

BirdofPrey

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 272

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger_888

"On May 31, 2005, in the case Arthur Andersen LLP v. United States, the Supreme Court of the United States unanimously reversed Andersen's conviction due to what it saw as serious flaws in the jury instructions. In the court's view, the instructions were far too vague to allow a jury to find obstruction of justice had really occurred. The court found that the instructions were worded in such a way that Andersen could have been convicted without any proof that the firm knew it had broken the law or that there had been a link to any official proceeding that prohibited the destruction of documents. The opinion, written by Chief Justice William Rehnquist, was also highly skeptical of the government's concept of "corrupt persuasion"—persuading someone to engage in an act with an improper purpose even without knowing an act is unlawful."

Roger you are way off base here and trolling never gets you anywhere. The Enron scandal is a complex financial and accounting issue that can't be effectively debated by cutting and pasting stuff you find on random websites. What is a fact is that there were tons of shenanigans going on, this is why Arthur Anderson (the "independent" auditor) got the "death" penalty, meaning they were stripped of their ability to audit companies which destroyed their business (this has nothing to do with criminal acts, whole different story).

Your ability to cut and past random information from websites isn't really something to debate anyways.

Getting back to THR, I still think that it is going to be interesting to see what information the investigator who is being paid by the Seminoles delivers to the NIGC.

Last edited by BirdofPrey; 01-30-2013 at 09:53 PM.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 09:52 PM

#6184

browser2920

Niceness Influencer

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 6,527

Interesting thing in the mail today. I got a 1099 tax form from the THR showing around $1300 of income. I believe that is from the various promotions during the year where you had to sign a form to get it. It's definitely not from any individual jackpot.

I've had W2-Gs from jackpots in the past, that they give you on the spot, but never an end of year 1099 for promos.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 09:52 PM

#6185

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVgame

Just like any poker room, weekdays during the day have the most regs and experienced players, and nights and weekends have more players with less experience. Not sure how to correlate that with your definition of "good."

There are almost always multiple 2/5 NL tables running (except maybe 4-10AM when there might be just one). There is usually one or two 5/10 NL tables running, but certainly not 24x7. Don't know about PLO.

I believe that the 2/5 NL tables now have a buy-in up to $1000, so you might be able to find some action at these tables even if 5/10 is not running.

Quote

01-30-2013 , 10:08 PM

#6186

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by BirdofPrey

I am sorry, but I completely disagree with the facts as you presented them. A lot of lawsuits (criminal and civil) were filed against Andersen, but they voluntarily surrendered their license to audit financial statements. The criminal charges were overturned by a 9-0 vote of the US Supreme Court.

As far as shenanigans, I don't exactly know which ones you are referring to. Enron was ripping off many of their customers such as the State of California, but that is not something an auditor has any jurisdiction over. Some of the financial accounting reporting methods were controversial, but they were actually legal due to poor regulatory oversight of the FASB (Financial Accounting Standards Board).

There is a difference between a company going bankrupt, and a company publishing false financial statements (a company may do one or the other, or may do both since they are not necessarily related). Enron would have gone bankrupt even if their financial reporting was more conservative (in fact they would have gone bankrupt sooner). Just because a company goes bankrupt does mean that the auditors can be blamed.

But anyway, getting back to the crux of the issue, do you think if Enron had government auditors, instead of auditors hired by the Enron Board of Directors that it would have been any different? Consider what happened to Bernie Madoff. Knowledgeable people reported over a number of years to the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission which regulates brokerages and trading firms) that Madoff was running a ponzi scheme. The SEC government regulators went in and did an "investigation" several times, and each time Madoff was given a clean bill of health by the government regulators. It was only because of the stock market crash of 2007-2008 that Madoff was caught, since a lot of his investors tried to cash out. So much for "government" paid regulators and auditors.

Finally, I was a licensed CPA for many years, and worked for a Big 5 accounting firm, so don't call me a troll.

Quote

01-31-2013 , 01:42 AM

#6187

BirdofPrey

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 272

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger_888

OK I hate to do it but I'm going to have to feed the troll, just a little.

If you are a CPA and you are stating that using SPEs to hide liabilities and losses in order to a maintain a top credit rating while reporting profits that were over inflated or just non existent is just a "controversial" practice then my name is my name is Bond, James Bond or 007 if you prefer.

After the situation came to light AA was being told that they would not be allowed to practice by numerous state authorities, they were facing many investor lawsuits, and due to the criminal issue (which was later over turned, this is correct) they would not have been able to provide audits for SEC reporting purposes. Plus much of their top talent was being poached by the remaining big 4 and regional firms. They got blamed for their conduct and lack of due diligence among other things, including the shredding of audit work papers to hide the conduct, not because Enron went bankrupt. Let's just say that having CFO level public company financial reporting experience gives one a fairly decent vantage point on this subject.

No one is extolling the virtue of government paid regulators or auditors, just that an investigator paid by the tribe may not be the most optimal candidate to investigate the tribe's activities.

Even you can agree to this?

Last edited by BirdofPrey; 01-31-2013 at 01:55 AM.

Quote

01-31-2013 , 04:09 AM

#6188

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by BirdofPrey

I don't think there is any benefit to continue to debate the details of the Enron situation. It may be interesting, but is way off topic. If you want to create an off topic thread on this, I will provide a more detailed answer.

Regarding the Seminole case that was reported to the National Indian Gaming Council by PokerXanadu, my understanding is this (corrections welcome):

PokerXanadu says he thinks there may be some irregularities about how THR handles the BBJ drop and promotions, etc, but that the Indian casinos are unregulated. (several different posts)
I mention that, although Indian Casinos are not under state regulation, there appears to be some federal regulations for Tribal Casinos from the National Indian Gaming Commission and I post some info about it. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6026
I post the email address of NIGC. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6033
PokerXanadu finds specific regulations on the NIGC website that he thinks that THR is in violation of and posts the details of the regulations. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6041
I reiterate that PokerXanadu should file a complaint with NIGC if he has a concern. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6042
PokerXanadu says that he has filed a complaint with the NIGC (and posts the text of his complaint). http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6045
PokerXanadu receives an e-mail response from Keith Hicks of the NIGC, inviting him to phone Hicks about his complaint, which PokerXanadu did. Keith said that he needs to process the complaint through the TGC (Tribal Gaming Commission) first, to give them a chance to address the issue http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6077
PokerXanadu received a phone call from Jack Keenan, an investigator for the Seminole Tribe. Keenan said he will be looking into the issues that PokerXanadu reported to the NIGC. Keenan says he works as an independent and says he has no vested interest in the outcome of his investigation. When Keenan is done, he will report back to the tribe, who will then report back to the NIGC with the Seminole response to the allegations. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6167

My understanding is that the NIGC contacted the Seminole Tribe regarding PokerXanadu's complaint. The Seminole Tribe decided to hire an investigator to review the complaint and report back to the Tribe. The investigator clearly is being paid by the Tribe and is not completely independent because of that, but I don't see any problem since he does not represent the NIGC. This would be like if a defendant in a civil (or criminal) suit hires an attorney to represent them, but the attorney does not rule on the case, that is left to the judge or the jury, (in this case the NIGC).

The Seminole Tribe could have had one of their own employees investigate the allegations before they responded back to the NIGC, but they chose to hire an investigator. Since the investigator does not rule on the case (that will be for the NIGC), I don't see what is wrong, and why I said complaining about who pays Keenan is a red herring.

Quote

01-31-2013 , 05:55 AM

#6189

PokerXanadu

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10,583

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger_888

PokerXanadu says he thinks there may be some irregularities about how THR handles the BBJ drop and promotions, etc, but that the Indian casinos are unregulated. (several different posts)
I mention that, although Indian Casinos are not under state regulation, there appears to be some federal regulations for Tribal Casinos from the National Indian Gaming Commission and I post some info about it. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6026
I post the email address of NIGC. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6033
PokerXanadu finds specific regulations on the NIGC website that he thinks that THR is in violation of and posts the details of the regulations. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6041
I reiterate that PokerXanadu should file a complaint with NIGC if he has a concern. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6042
PokerXanadu says that he has filed a complaint with the NIGC (and posts the text of his complaint). http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6045
PokerXanadu receives an e-mail response from Keith Hicks of the NIGC, inviting him to phone Hicks about his complaint, which PokerXanadu did. Keith said that he needs to process the complaint through the TGC (Tribal Gaming Commission) first, to give them a chance to address the issue http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6077
PokerXanadu received a phone call from Jack Keenan, an investigator for the Seminole Tribe. Keenan said he will be looking into the issues that PokerXanadu reported to the NIGC. Keenan says he works as an independent and says he has no vested interest in the outcome of his investigation. When Keenan is done, he will report back to the tribe, who will then report back to the NIGC that they have taken care of the matter. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6167

FYP.

There was no indication by Keith Hicks of the NIGC that the matter will be taken up by the NIGC, or ruled upon by the NIGC, etc. It was more like (paraphrasing) - "First we'll pass it on to the Seminole Tribal Gaming Commission to take care of. I'll only take action if they don't look into it themselves." I'm pretty sure if the Seminoles report back to the NIGC that the matter was investigated and everything is now hunkey dorey, the matter will be closed without any scrutiny of the internal procedures of the tribe by the NIGC.

Quote

01-31-2013 , 12:46 PM

#6190

BirdofPrey

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 272

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger_888

PokerXanadu says he thinks there may be some irregularities about how THR handles the BBJ drop and promotions, etc, but that the Indian casinos are unregulated. (several different posts)
I mention that, although Indian Casinos are not under state regulation, there appears to be some federal regulations for Tribal Casinos from the National Indian Gaming Commission and I post some info about it. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6026
I post the email address of NIGC. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6033
PokerXanadu finds specific regulations on the NIGC website that he thinks that THR is in violation of and posts the details of the regulations. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6041
I reiterate that PokerXanadu should file a complaint with NIGC if he has a concern. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6042
PokerXanadu says that he has filed a complaint with the NIGC (and posts the text of his complaint). http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6045
PokerXanadu receives an e-mail response from Keith Hicks of the NIGC, inviting him to phone Hicks about his complaint, which PokerXanadu did. Keith said that he needs to process the complaint through the TGC (Tribal Gaming Commission) first, to give them a chance to address the issue http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6077
PokerXanadu received a phone call from Jack Keenan, an investigator for the Seminole Tribe. Keenan said he will be looking into the issues that PokerXanadu reported to the NIGC. Keenan says he works as an independent and says he has no vested interest in the outcome of his investigation. When Keenan is done, he will report back to the tribe, who will then report back to the NIGC with the Seminole response to the allegations. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=6167

There's nothing to debate the facts are very well documented. Remember your trolling and cutting and pasting snippets that you found on the interwebs led down that path.

Again the concept of a person who works for the tribe, is paid by the tribe, and who reports to the tribe not being a credible source for an investigation does not seem to resonate with you. The analogy of hiring an attorney to represent you that doesn't rule on the case is so far deep out in left field it's a nearly 410 foot shot just inside the foul pole.

Take the example of the tobacco companies. Years ago they were being accused of selling products that were killing people. In response they offered to hire investigators (like the Tribe hiring their investigator) to investigate and provide a report to the tobacco companies (in similar fashion as the tribe's investigator providing a report to them) detailing their findings about the risks of their products. The tobacco companies were going to provide the findings in the reports to various other concerned parties including the government (like the tribe providing their report to the NIGC).

Again, in a very stunning twist of events, the reports that were produced by investigators that were paid for by the tobacco companies more or less stated that the tobacco products were safe. Who'd have thunk that an investigator paid for by the very organization that was the subject of the scrutiny would have truly done independent, unbiased research?

At the very least PX's valiant effort may at least get the management have some concern that they could be scrutinized in the future regarding how they do things and how they treat players' money, and that would be a victory in and of itself.

Last edited by BirdofPrey; 01-31-2013 at 01:03 PM.

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01-31-2013 , 01:50 PM

#6191

33 Big Blinds

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,324

Cliffs: we are talking about Seminole Hard Rock, not Enron. The Seminoles have been caught previously manipulating laws for their benefit. I wouldn't put it past them to do it again.

Congrats Roger, you are now lucky number two on my blocked user list.

Quote

01-31-2013 , 04:21 PM

#6192

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33 Big Blinds

I never said one way or the other whether THR is violating regulations or if they are manipulating laws for their benefit. I personally have no idea.

All I know is that PokerXanadu has some concerns, I provided him with information on where to file a complaint (which he did), and we are awaiting to see what happens after that. I suggested that we not jump to any conclusions based on the fact that the Seminole Tribe hired an investigator to look into the matter, and then report back to the NIGC. If the final results are unsatisfactory, then people can complain.

Quote

01-31-2013 , 04:29 PM

#6193

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by BirdofPrey

AFAIK, the investigator hired by the Seminole Tribe will report back to the Tribe, and the Tribe will then report back to NIGC to respond to the complaint made by PokerXanadu. I am not expecting the Seminole response to be objective (I am not sure we are going to see the report of the investigator,since it appears to be for internal Seminole use). I don't know why anyone would think tobacco companies are objective either.

I have suggested that we give the NIGM a chance to hear the Seminole response to PokerXanadu's complaint and then see what the NIGC does about it before everyone gets their panties all wadded up. Then, if some are still not satisfied, they may throw a temper tantrum and I will not complain.

Quote

01-31-2013 , 04:38 PM

#6194

Roger_888

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 666

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

I guess it depends on what the desired outcome is. If THR makes changes to now comply with the regulations going forward, I doubt that any action will be taken against them for past events. If you are not satisfied with only fixing things going forward, then you may indeed be disappointed.

But I think if things are fixed going forward, that is a big step, and a lot of poker players will owe you a debt of gratitude for bringing this to the NIGM. If they don't fix things going forward, I would notify the NIGM and see if they will handle it themselves. Don't forget that the guy who blew the whistle on Bernie Madoff complained numerous times to the SEC over a number of years about the obvious fraud before they listened, so don't give up if you think that THR is still in con-compliance.

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01-31-2013 , 06:35 PM

#6195

PokerXanadu

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10,583

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger_888

Yes, that's pretty much my plan. I'll give the tribe some time to sort through my complaint, and then I'll contact the NIGC again if I haven't heard anything. I am looking for changes for the future, not some recompense for past improprieties (although that, too, would be welcomed obv). See my post above for the goals I have for this complaint.

And as BoPrey said, even if all that is accomplished is the management of the THR cardroom being a bit more concerned, at least that is something. Still, I've set my bar quite a bit higher than that and will do what I can to reach it. I'll ask for help later on if more input or action is needed from other players.

In the meantime, please save me from bad tournament players who chase to the river for a 3-outer.

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02-04-2013 , 08:37 AM

#6196

PeopleMover

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 475

Quote:

Originally Posted by browser2920

Yes the are from gas and Visa cards and swag bag and wheel spins

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02-08-2013 , 12:40 AM

#6197

HauntingTheHoly

centurion

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeopleMover

Yes the are from gas and Visa cards and swag bag and wheel spins

Are you certain? When did this start? I receive forms listing cash that I've won: A Royal and a Hot Seat. But I've probably earned 3 grand worth of "stuff" and never received anything.

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02-08-2013 , 02:51 AM

#6198

machi5

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 786

I've heard other players say they got a form as well. I've not gotten anything, and hit every promo (minus the wheel-o-crap), plus some royals.

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02-08-2013 , 08:34 PM

#6199

hotwatermusic

banned

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 171

So I put a h.o.r.s.e. game on the list which took the better part of thirty mins to even find out if they could have/deal the game. They didn't have a horse label for the board so they put it under 5-10 razz which likely will scare ppl away.