I am pretty sure that they run the casino in order to make a profit. If they pay out more in promos than they get in revenue from poker players, they will be loosing money.

The room is open 24x7 and there is usually at least one table for both 1/2 and 2/5 going all the time. Obviously going to be thin at around 6:00 AM - 9:00 AM on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Holiday season is busier than normal. They also sometimes have 1/3 tables going.

i wouldn't expect otherwise. i also expect 100% of this to come from the jackpot drop they take out of almost every hand that is played. i can't imagine they're going to come close to paying out more than they take in with the jackpot drop by paying 5k per spade royal flush. but perhaps i'm wrong. i haven't even attempted to try and put the math together.

anyway, my recent posts have been overly negative. not trying to say it's unfair or we deserve more. just stating that this promotion doesn't make me want to come to the room anymore than usual... which is usually the point of the promotion i think.

merry christmas and happy new year all!

Pretty sure regular, winning poker players aren't the target market of the promotions.
They are doing a 235 buyin tourney tomorrow night, instead of the usual 20k guaranteed with either 400 or 500 buyin. Does anyone know if it is still 20k guaranteed?

Back when the progressive jackpot was hitting a spade royal flush, needing only 1 card in your hand, (actually none if all 5 came on the board, as it did once when I was there) I seem to remember it would get hit about once a week-two weeks. Sometimes twice a week; sometimes even twice a day. But sometimes it would not get hit for a month or more, which made the jackpot pretty high by its standards (around 50k); I think it got right around 100k once since I was playing there (starting end of 2005). And you didn't split it; the winner got the whole thing.

But conditions were different then. They only played limit, with 1-2 being the highest game. The economy was good. So often there were long lines just to sign up, and big lists to get on a table. Plus, since the game was limit, anyone with a spade broadway in their hand would see a flop, and continue as long as a spade royal was possible.

I think with all the NL games now, it will take longer for it to get hit. And if they require two cards in hand, then of course even more. But then put the restriction that it must be a Monday, and that narrows it significantly.

I actually liked the old jackpot better than the BBJ. It would normally start around 3-4K, and then build up. It was often around 20k. If it was hit, then a backup would start around 4k, depending on how large the jackpot was. But when the backup got hit, it would reset to 500.

When that jackpot got over around 15k, people would just live there until it got hit, because they knew it would probably go in a day or so. If a flop had two or three spade broadway's on it, people would come over from other tables to watch. It seems like it built a lot more excitement than the current BBJ, since it was hit so often. I think lots of people winning 5-35k builds more interest than 1 person hitting 500k every 7 months.

As far as I understand, they have to spend all of the drop on BBJ or other promotions. I would agree that they may not always make the right decisions on how that promotion money is allocated, but they are legally required to spend it all. I assume that they offer those promotions to get the most people into the room that otherwise would not be there, and I suspect they know more about that from experience than I do. From what you describe, they probably are trying to get more people to the poker room on Mondays.

They are NOT legally required to do anything...the THR is not subject to state gaming laws. There are certain things that they may be contractually obligated to under their compact with the state. THR is more or less an unregulated monopoly.

Although Indian reservations do not fall under most state laws (as you correctly stated), they do fall under the jurisdiction of all Federal laws (they are not independent nations as some think).

Therefore they do have to follow the US (Federal) Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, so they are not unregulated. There are also Federal Consumer Affairs laws that may also apply (such as laws against false advertising). I was presuming that THR claims (or strongly implies) that all drops are spent on BBJ or other promotions, so that is why I said they must in theory abide by that.

Whether or not they are a monopoly is irrelevant.

QFT.

They could keep every penny if they wanted to. Federal law has absolutely nothing to do with jackpot distribution. State law does, but it does not apply to Hard Rock's many properties.

How do you know that? The relationship between Indian gaming rights and state gaming laws is more complex than people think, and seems to be a moving target. For example, it has been clearly established (so far) that Indian reservations cannot operate casinos in states that have no gambling or lottery whatsoever (such as Utah).

Also, why wouldn't normal Federal consumer protection laws prohibiting false advertising apply?

Curious about the cheap rooms mentioned in first post - is East Lake Inn or Knights Inn worth staying at? Does anyone prefer one over the other?

I am not going to elaborate on the relationship between the Feds and Indians (but I'm sure Poker Xanadu would if he is around). I will just say that playing poker in every major market, I speak from experience seeing that federal law does not dictate jackpot distribution. Ultimately the states write the laws regarding the specifics of gaming. There is a thread somewhere around here where we all chimed in on rules and regulations we would like to see, then went to South Florida to present our case.

Florida sold out in 2009 with a compact that kept the Seminole casinos 100% unregulated - what that means is that there is no one watching what they are doing. They could cheat if they wanted to. Also the slot payouts need not be published - if you ask them they will tell you they don't give out that information. I would never play the slots in a place that probably pays out less than 60%. The State is guaranteed 150 million a year - the casino made 9 billion in 2009.

I have never played slots, and probably never will, but I find it hard to believe they would have very many customers if they only paid 60%. They seem to do a very good slot business from what I can tell.

When you say 9 billion a year, is that gross revenue, or net profit? I assume it is gross, and they net about 5-10% of the 9 billion after payout and all other expenses.

Other dealers confirmed today that they were told it will be ALL royals on Mondays, not just spades (yippee!). And extra money will be put into the BBJ daily. Again, yippee!

And I have also always heard, from people in the know, that the Indian casinos do not need to pay out all of their jackpot money (whether it is a percentage, or none at all, I do not know), whereas the other (non- Indian) card rooms must pay out 100%.

I understand what people are saying in that most state gaming commissions have regulations about how jackpot money is paid out, and that Indian casinos are not under state jurisdiction. However, my understanding is that THR uses the drop for both jackpots and other promotions and they don't use just pocket it for profit. Doing otherwise would be false advertising, and although not under gaming commission regulations, it would violate other federal consumer protection laws if they just pocketed it. But obviously it is not going to be exactly 100% payout at any given time, and they don't get audited by the gaming commission to make sure it is paid out.

Also, consider that the Seminole casinos try to comply with most FL gaming laws even when they don't have to, or when it is not clear whether they have to. One example of this is max buy-in rule, which was not raised beyond $100 at the THR until the state raised it for all poker venues in Florida.

The Seminole casinos are a gold mine, and they are not likely to do anything which gets them any bad publicity, especially if they don't have to in order to still make huge amounts of money.

Not to nit pick, but there was an almost 48 hour period that I played in when the original $100 buy in rule was set. THR did not comply until state regulators stepped in. A couple of the 5/10 and 10/25 games I played in had $50-$100k on the table (being conservative). This was during the $100 buy in era.

Long story short, if history repeats itself, they will bend the rules until they are caught. Except there is no way to prove if, or if they are not, paying out 100% of the jackpot money taken in.

There seem to be three issues here:

1. Which state regulations apply to Seminole casinos.
2. Which state regulations do the Seminole casinos voluntary comply with.
3. Enforcement.

You post about the "state regulators stepped in" seems to suggest that their compliance was not voluntary, and that they are subject to some state laws regarding gaming.

Also, I do realize that when voluntary compliance exists, or with regard to Federal consumer protection laws about false advertising, the issue of compliance is separate. In these cases, someone may have to file a commplaint with the FTC if there is false advertising, as opposed to auditors from a gaming commission showing up and making sure things are done correctly.

I remember the time 33 blinds is referring to. If my memory isn't wrong (and it may indeed be off), they ran those "no max" stakes for maybe 10 days or so until the *Feds* (not state regulators) came in and made them stop. Try asking any dealers who have been there awhile next time you go.

Do you really think slot players are intelligent and discerning customers?

No, but they might be able to notice the difference between 60% and 90% payout. I don't claim to be an expert on slots, other than there seem to be a fairly large number of slot players at THR as compared to most other casinos I have been to.

I read somewhere that even though a federal law was passed that allows Indian casinos, it still requires the Indian casinos to negotiate with the states on the details. But it is definitely confusing. I get the impression that the Indian casinos usually pay off the state a certain percentage of the winnings, in exchange for the state allowing them to have casinos, but still prohibit casinos in the rest of the state outside of Indian territory.

My bad - typo. 2 Billion - I assume gross - and all Seminole casinos:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/busines...n-2009/1154721

Last year (2008), legislators, facing a deep budget shortfall, passed a new $1 billion gambling compact with the tribe. The state gave the tribe exclusive operation of blackjack, baccarat and chemin de fer at five of its seven casinos and exclusive operation of Vegas-style slots at it four casinos outside Miami-Dade and Broward counties.

In return, the tribe guarantees Florida $1 billion over five years. The state will receive at least $150 million for each of the first two years, and a minimum of $233 million in years three and four and $234 million in year five. Or the state can get 10 percent of net revenue from the exclusive games starting in year three — whichever amount is greater.

I don't play slots - but I play poker in regulated 99% payout casinos. On a Fri or Sat night there are large slot jackpots ($5000 plus) all over the floor. I compared that to what goes on in the hard Rock - you are lucky if you see a $1000 pay out.

But the real proof is that they won't tell you the % - that means it sucks.

Since they are unregulated it is impossible to know this for a fact. Think Mob and Vegas in it's hey-day.