I don't doubt that the slot payout percent sucks. I was just thinking that 60% may be a little too low, even for an Indian casino.

I don't think it was 10 days, but I could easily be wrong about which regulators, fed vs. state, stepped in. I thought it was like 4-5 days max. I did play for almost 48 hours straight though, so I may have been delusional by that point.

Either way, they have proven to me that they cannot be trusted. And since there is no way to verify how much is taken in jackpot money compared to payouts, I can only assume that there is some pilfering. Even at 1%, there's good money to be made with no way to trace it.

http://www.americancasinoguide.com/s...s.html#Florida

No exact numbers for Hard Rock, but: "Florida gaming regulations require a minimum payback of 85% on all gaming machines.

From July 1, 2010 through June 30, 2011, the gaming machines at Gulfstream returned 92.08%, the return was 91.76% at Mardi Gras Gaming, 92.70% at The Isle, 92.76% at Magic City and 91.20% at Calder."

The Seminoles are not subject to state gaming regulations.

Under the gaming compact with the state the Seminoles may be required to meet certain contractual obligations. However the state agrees that the Seminoles are a "federally recognized tribal government possessing sovereign powers and rights of self-government".

http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr...ct-Signed1.pdf

I have personally never dropped any money in a slop machine but it is my understanding that in most jurisdictions slots must return a minimum payout percentage to players which is established by law or regulation. This payout is just he minimum, competition typically dictates that the actual percentages paid out are much higher, i.e. I have read that the min. payout in Nevada is 75% due to state gaming regulations but due to competitive pressures the casinos pay out a higher percentage.

The Seminoles have no such competitive pressure on them, so ergo their payouts are more than likely much lower than places like Las Vegas or Atlantic City. The bottom line is that it is raining money on the Seminoles, there is very little regulatory oversight of their activities due to confusing/conflicting laws and regulations, and they more or less operate as a monopoly in the markets they serve. Increased competition would be great for everyone (but the Seminoles).

Are there any promotions going on currently other than the standard bad beat jackoff? or high hand bonuses? I called the room and they said there wasn't but that didn't seem right, seemed like the guy didn't want to take the time to answer the question.

The guy had it right, bad beat and $500 for royals are the promos right now.

I am not disagreeing with you, but at some point, if the payout is too low, some people are not going to play the slots even if there is no other casino nearby (what you call monopoly). Obviously the pain threshold depends on the person, but the THR slot machines seem quite busy compared to other casinos I have been to. But as I said previously, I don't play slots, I don't understand the attraction, and I wouldn't play them unless the average payout was more than 100%.

The Seminole casinos may not be subject to the same rules as non-Indian casinos, but they are subject to quite a few rules as described in the document above. Or at least they agreed to be subject to those rules. But they apparently needed some state authorization to operate casinos, since they pay the state a big chunk of money for the right to do so.

Regarding the "sovereign powers and rights of self-government" for Inidan Tribes in the US, the Seminoles (like all Indian tribal lands in the US) are subject to federal laws. They are generally not subject to State laws, although even that gets murky in some situations like Drivers Licenses, etc (maybe they voluntarily let the states handle that for them).

In addition, the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) is responsible for the administration and management of 55 million surface acres and 57 million acres of subsurface minerals estates held in trust by the United States for American Indian, Indian tribes, and Alaska Natives. The Bureau of Indian Education (BIE) provides education services to approximately 42,000 Indian students. Both the BIA and BIE are part of the US Department of the Interior.

Here's more to the rumor about the Jan promo. It's just a rumor, but who knows. The player who said it is a reg, and he said he got it from a dealer.

In addition to the royals being $5000 on Mondays, the new part is that the BBJ will be doubled on Mondays. So for example, if it is $80k, then on Monday it will pay out $160k. I asked did he mean that the $2k per day they add would be doubled on Mondays, and he said no, the total BBJ is doubled on Mondays.

No idea if it is true. Of course still next to impossible to hit. We'll see what happens. If it is true, what a strange promo; what makes Monday so much different than Tue-Thurs in terms of getting people into the poker room.

lolololololololololololololol......

The last thing the Seminole casinos try to do is comply with FL laws. They operated their casinos in a legal grey area for YEARS, while negotiating for a compact accepted by the FL Congress. And years before that, they ran bingo slots for many years without any federal or state authorization, while fighting the state in court for the right to do so. They won and were probably in the right, but the modus operandi is certainly not compliance with FL laws, either voluntarily or involuntarily. The attempt to run unlimited poker in defiance of the state's $100 buy-in law, requiring federal Marshalls to come in and shut it down, is another good example.

As regards federal laws, only specific laws written in regards to Indian nations apply, not all federal laws. Otherwise, they are granted sovereign nation status, not subject to other federal laws. The FTC has no jurisdiction over Indian nations.

The Seminole cardrooms are completely unregulated by the State of Florida. They are subject to the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, but there are no federal laws or regulations in regards to things like jackpot drop, dealer qualifications and background checks, game rules, false advertising, player recourse, casino liability, etc. The operation of the cardrooms is at the complete discretion of the Seminoles. As any player who is a regular knows, they can pretty much get away with anything.

Personally, I do not like to play there, despite the attraction of the soft play. I simply do not like to step onto their sovereign territory, knowing that I have no recourse for unfair treatment and little liability coverage (the State-Seminole compact limits any liability for injury to $100K per incident - they could accidentally maim you for life, and the most compensation you would get is $100K). If my experiences there had shown them to operate with any sort of integrity, my attitude would be different. But my experiences have been just the opposite.

As regards state authority, it is a tenuous relationship. The compact sets out the parameters. State authority under the compact to enforce compliance is limited, and revolves mainly around auditing accounts to ensure the state gets their proper cut of revenues. Enforcement on other matters would probably involve federal intervention at the request of the state.

Given the history of corruption among the Seminole tribal leadership, I wouldn't trust the casinos to be above cheating, skimming and fraud. I don't recall offhand if the slots are subject to any state payout minimums, but it certainly wouldn't be surprising to find that actual payouts are in the 60% range. Players who play slots generally aren't mindful of how loose the machines are - like lottery players, they expect to lose their money unless they get a lucky strike.

Florida pari-mutuel cardrooms are required by state law to pay out 100% of their jackpot drop in jackpot prizes to the players. The only sidestep they have is tournament seat give-aways, where some of the money stays in the cardroom coffers as they are paying both the tournament fee and the buy-in out of the jackpot drop.

Seminole casino cardrooms are not subject to any state or federal regulations regarding use of the jackpot drop. They can do anything they want with it. They can even say how it will be used, and then do something completely different. Next time you are at THR, ask the room manager how much of the drop goes back to players and how much the casino keeps. I'd be surprised if you get a straight answer, beyond what their printed fliers say: 40% to the BBJ, 60% retained for "future promotions".

Perhaps their room promotions use up all that 60%, perhaps not. The real question is, do they segregate that 60% as earmarked for player prizes, or do they add it to their revenues and just pay for promos as they go from operational funds? (Sound familiar?)

There he is. Thanks PX for taking the time to write that out.

Here's an interesting story from 1995 about fraud and skimming at the Seminole casinos. I like the part about the Chairman of the tribe resisting having security cameras, since they would only be looking at themselves. Or how they fired the police after the police found out fraud was going on.

http://www.sptimes.com/News2/seminol...e/players.html

I never said the Seminole casinos are required to comply with FL gaming laws, but clearly they have generally complied voluntarily with some of them (such as max poker buy-in of $100 when it existed). And please don't tell me otherwise because I played a lot of 5/10 NL with $100 max buy-in at THR when that was the rule for all FL poker.

There are also some limited regulations in the agreement posted above that they have with the state of FL, so it is not exactly true to say they are completely unregulated. But obviously they don't have to comply with the FL laws to pertain to non-Indian gaming and accurate to say the Seminole casinos are largely unregulated by the state of FL, and the state does not specify any payout percentages for the Seminole casinos.

With regard to BBJ drop and promotions, Seminole casinos are not bound by a specific regulations, but anyone who thinks there is significant fraud involved, one can file a civil complaint in Federal court, just like you can file a lawsuit against any business where one has been defrauded. There are "general" federal consumer protection laws that exist that can be used as the basis for a lawsuit. However, you cannot sue the Seminole casinos in state or local courts.

I think the point about skimming is that at one time the Seminoles hired Hard Rock to run the casinos for them, but In 2007 Hard Rock was sold to the Seminole Tribe of Florida, so there is no ownership difference between the casino and the management company. So that is why that guy says if they were skimming, they would just be stealing from themselves. Obviously the fraud conducted against the casino with employee collusion, is just plain employee theft.

If you have never been involved in a federal lawsuit I can assure you that it is not as simple as just "filing a lawsuit". I'm not even going to bother to get into the details but suffice to say there are a number of challenges that come with filing federal lawsuits.

To state that because the ownership and management are related parties or one in the same so there is no skimming or fraud is very short sighted. For one brief example, let's say a subset of management (who are also owners) were to skim to benefit themselves and to the detriment of the whole of management and/or ownership, happens all the time in the real world. Again if you think this through you will see that your statements on this subject are lacking in a logical conclusion.

PXanadu gave the most accurate summation that I have seen on this subject and I believe in older posts he's provided even more in depth facts and analysis about this subject. The Seminoles have a nearly unregulated monopoly and until some competition is allowed in the market they will pretty much do as they please within the context of what the market will bear. Since we are dealing with the public's thirst for gambling and pretty much one option to satisfy that thirst it seems safe to say that the market will bear a lot!

Ah, well, if you played lots of 2/5 NL with max $100 buy-in, that must prove that the Seminoles clearly always complied with FL gaming laws. We'll just ignore history and facts.

Please quote the portions of the Seminole/State compact which has "limited regulations" for the Seminole cardrooms. I only see regulations for the casino gaming.

And while you are at it, please quote United States Code that specifies that Indian nations are subject to general federal consumer protection laws. Bet you can't. In general, when you step onto Indian tribal land (such as Indian casinos), you are leaving state and U.S. federal jurisdiction and entering Tribal government jurisdiction, subject only to state-tribal compact and CHAPTER 25 INDIANS of the U.S. Code.

Note: Correction to my earlier post: Seminole tort claim liability is $200K per person (not $100K), and $300K total per incident.

Nowhere did I ever say they always complied with FL gaming laws. I said they sometimes voluntarily seemed to comply with some FL regulations. Also, I said 5/10 NL, not 2/5 NL, so obviously you are not carefully reading what I posted.

I never said cardrooms. Glad that you agree that there are at least some regulations regarding Seminole casinos (as described in the document link posted above).

American Indians are US citizens (since 1924), they serve in the US Military (and have the same obligations for military service as all other U.S. citizens), they vote in Federal Elections (including voting for US Senators, etc). In addition, American Indians can access Federal education, health, welfare, and other social service programs available to all citizens. They also pay US income taxes.

If you read the newspaper article linked above, you will see that the FBI was mentioned in the investigations, since they do have jurisdiction on Indian lands. The 1885 Major Crimes Act, 18 U.S.C. §§1153, 3242, and various court decisions since then, require most federal crimes on Indian lands to be investigated by the federal government, usually the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and prosecuted by United States Attorneys of the United States federal judicial district in which the reservation lies.

In general, Indian are not under the jurisdiction of states within their reservations, and do not pay state taxes (unless they work outside the reservation).

Although the relationship between the Indian Tribes and Federal and State governments can sometimes be complex, it is probably best to think of them as having similar powers that states have (they have their own laws, but are subject to Federal laws).

seems like very few grinders in the room- kind of odd given the size of the room. Do other rooms in the area have better bonuses or something?

I don't think any lawsuit regarding BBJ drops would be simple, whether filed in Federal Court against the Seminoles, or whether filed in Las Vegas related to a Vegas casino. With regard to Federal consumer protection laws, one could probably file a complaint with the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) without having to file a lawsuit (This assumes that the casino advertised that they spent all of the drop on BBJ or promotions). I don't claim one will always get satisfaction, but it is not so easy to get legal satisfaction if your local auto mechanic rips you off.

I don't think anyone said there is no fraud or employee theft if the Seminoles own the casino and also manage it. But the example you mention about one subset of owner(s) skimming to the detriment of other owners is really just employee theft. In the old days of Las Vegas, where casinos had multiple owners, your explanation makes more sense, but the Seminoles are the sole owners and they own the management company also (this is what the Seminole guy was trying to explain in the newspaper article). Previously, the owners of the Seminole casino where different than the owners management company.

PXanadu posted the regulations and agreement between the state of FL and the Seminoles. I read the entire document. There are some regulations in the document, although certainly not as many as pertain to non-Indian gaming in FL or even compared to regulations that Las Vegas or AC casinos must adhere to by their regulators. And you said "nearly unregulated," which means there are some regulations.

The issue of them being a monopoly is irrelevant. In the realm of poker, I don't think the Seminoles have a monopoly, although non-Indian poker has some additional regulations they must adhere to. Even so, I have not noticed a big difference between Seminole poker and race-track poker (IMO).

Are you talking about right now? During the holidays, there are lots of tourists in the area. And I assume some grinders who live in Tampa may be out of town visiting their family.

They are only subject to CHAPTER 25 INDIANS of the U.S. Code. The things you listed are applicable under statutes in that chapter, not because the Indians are subject to federal law in general. Other federal laws do not apply to them as they are considered under federal law to be sovereign nations.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

At one time they were clearly considered to be sovereign nations, but that has changed over the years, and since then they have been granted US citizenship, they vote in US elections, they are eligible for Federal social services, they pay US income taxes, they are subject to Selective Service (military) obligations, etc, etc, etc. There are Federal laws relating to all these things that they must abide by.

Even the issue of Indian gaming rights is also complex, Even though Indian are "generally" allowed to have casinos on their lands, they cannot run casinos in states that have no gambling at all (such as Utah) and since they pay FL (and other states) a portion of their casino earnings, that does not sound like a sovereign nation to me.

are there usually lots of grinders? im guessing there would be a decent amount of tourists year-round, though, right?

Tourists vary with main vacation times for working people / school kids. So you get way more tourists at xmas and spring break than say in Feb. Plus you get more in the winter vs summer as people want to escape the cold. Plus there's the snow birds. So there are definitely peak periods for tourists.

As far as grinders go, of course you'll see more on a weekday morning than a Friday night.

Also, there are 2 college bowl games in Tampa Bay area, plus 2 more in Orlando, during the Christmas thru New Year holiday season that bring in a lot of tourists to the area.

But not sure what is meant by "grinder." A lot of the regs at THR are retired people, which is just the nature of the FL population.