Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Fantasy Sports Discussion of Fantasy Football, Fantasy Baseball, Fantasy Basketball and Fantasy Hockey.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-20-2015, 11:14 AM   #1501
BillyPhelan
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 630
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

If the sites want to improve the win rates from the current 1-2% and not look like total shark tanks spread the gpp prize pool more equitably.Not a new idea but nothing screams screw you recs like giving most of the prize pool to the top 5 finishers.
BillyPhelan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 11:24 AM   #1502
BK1248
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: roslindale
Posts: 3,724
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

On my phone it says Im restricted from playing on FD because of my location. I live in Boston and have no affiliation with NY. Anyone have this problem? I emailed FD support 4 times and obviously they never responded.
BK1248 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 11:50 AM   #1503
EddyB66
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
EddyB66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 25,197
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

I'm in boston haven't had that issue on my phone.
EddyB66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 12:10 PM   #1504
BK1248
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: roslindale
Posts: 3,724
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddyB66 View Post
I'm in boston haven't had that issue on my phone.

thx, yeh its seems weird, maybe they can figure it out, but they never respond by email or Twitter.
BK1248 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 12:21 PM   #1505
Losing all
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Losing all's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: out there
Posts: 7,088
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Both sites have had a lot of false positives with their new location process.
Losing all is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 12:39 PM   #1506
lerz
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Gzesh was right. It's like the NYAG copied one of his posts into an article.

AG explanation - "FanDuel and DraftKings have made the argument, over and over — including yesterday in this paper — that they run “games of skill” and are therefore legal. This is nonsense. New York law prohibits sports wagering — betting money on a future event outside of the gambler’s control — regardless of the skill involved. Yet this provision of the law is deliberately ignored by both FanDuel and DraftKings."

"Games of chance often involve some amount of skill; this does not make them legal. Good poker players often beat novices. But poker is still gambling, and running a poker room — or online casino — is illegal in New York."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.2441071
lerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 12:43 PM   #1507
Onlydo2days
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16,056
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

As much as I hate that guy, he definitely isn't an idiot.
Onlydo2days is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 01:14 PM   #1508
CanadaPete
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 525
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

W
Quote:
Originally Posted by lerz View Post
Gzesh was right. It's like the NYAG copied one of his posts into an article.

AG explanation - "FanDuel and DraftKings have made the argument, over and over — including yesterday in this paper — that they run “games of skill” and are therefore legal. This is nonsense. New York law prohibits sports wagering — betting money on a future event outside of the gambler’s control — regardless of the skill involved. Yet this provision of the law is deliberately ignored by both FanDuel and DraftKings."

"Games of chance often involve some amount of skill; this does not make them legal. Good poker players often beat novices. But poker is still gambling, and running a poker room — or online casino — is illegal in New York."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.2441071
I just don't understand how anyone can call what they do "bookmaking." It's basically fantasy contests among players which have existed for 25 years. You cannot wager on an outcome with the company. The only reason they are being targeted is because of their popularity (and the AG gets huge political contributions from horse racing interests and casinos which offer horrible products).


I believe their is an nj court ruling that fantasy sports entry fees are not wagers. So it's very deceptive for the AG and his media allies to throw around the term "bet" so loosely.


The AG should try out a free contest this weekend and see if he enjoys it. But he is probably like many politicians. A fake sports fan who pretends to like the mets for votes when they are winning.

Last edited by CanadaPete; 11-20-2015 at 01:23 PM.
CanadaPete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 02:28 PM   #1509
TomG
Pooh-Bah
 
TomG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: prop manager, crowdsource syndicate
Posts: 4,098
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPete View Post
The line makers are very sophisticated. So unless you are the .3 percent who are smarter than the Vegas books you simply have no shot.

DFS is somewhat different as you are competing against other players picks. If multi entry is somewhat restricted and the rake is called at a reasonable level I like my chances in that better.
The average player loses. More realistically, 90%+ of players are going to lose long term.

With those expectations in mind, with sports betting you can do zero research, plop down your funds and be assured of a sweat at a reasonable theoretical loss rate of around -4.5%.

In DFS the average player loses at a rate twice that while putting in far more effort.
TomG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 02:31 PM   #1510
Onlydo2days
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16,056
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

2.25% using 5D reduced juice as well

It is definitely a challenge for the sites to have a nice flowing ecosystem. I think they figured try to scale as much as possible and slowly restrict higher volume players as time goes on.

It would be interesting to see what the end game of that would look like. You need to find the balance of not letting the sharks eat too much but also you need to have profitable players or else people just will find something else to do.
Onlydo2days is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 02:36 PM   #1511
BillyPhelan
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 630
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

''Administrative fees'' lol.
''In fact, we have heard from experts that daily fantasy sports players are increasingly showing up in Gamblers Anonymous meetings and the offices of addiction counselors. In 2013, the National Council on Problem Gambling estimates the annual costs of gambling addiction in the United States at about $7 billion, including from crime, incarceration and bankruptcy''.Completely disingenuous,he didn't research this at all.AG is quoting anecdotal statements from a one page letter from the NCPG.Legal decisions are supposed to be based on facts not on something you ''heard''. And despite all the bad,bad things gambling causes NYAG is snugly in the pocket of the casino industry.
BillyPhelan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 02:48 PM   #1512
BillyPhelan
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 630
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onlydo2days View Post
As much as I hate that guy, he definitely isn't an idiot.
No,but he's much more dangerous.He's an ambitious power hungry hypocrite who feels he knows what's best for NY citizens,whether they like it or not.Couple that with a gutless,silent Governor (who is also in bed with the casinos) and the ever present culture of corruption in Albany and he can cause much more damage then any idiot.
BillyPhelan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 03:12 PM   #1513
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,924
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

If anyone is still interested in keeping up to date, I suggest following Dainel Roberts of Fortune Magazine for some DFS news:

https://twitter.com/readDanwrite
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 03:14 PM   #1514
Caldarooni
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Caldarooni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,001
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

DFS def a gateway drug. Started off with football. Found myself watching actual nascar races this year.
Caldarooni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 03:16 PM   #1515
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,924
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caldarooni View Post
DFS def a gateway drug. Started off with football. Found myself watching actual nascar races this year.
I watched EPL, and 100s of NBA games last year for the first time as well.
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 03:19 PM   #1516
Captain Oi!
adept
 
Captain Oi!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,128
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportsguydaily View Post
Hello Wall Street? His description of illegal gambling fits stock trading exactly!

Companies miss earnings by $.05 and the stock tumbles. Of course the sharks that lunch and wine and dine with the company executives already knew that, as they did when earnings hit the other way. Minnows lose. Sharks win. The only way for Average Joe to get in stocks is 401k, Mutual Funds, etc... that fee him to death, making mega-millions for the managers who do nothing, risk nothing, and lose nothing.

Leave the people alone with their money!

Add some regulation is needed though. As an extreme example FD and DK could be adding lineups after the games are completed with no penalty. Certainly the insiders are using their info. Why wouldn't they?
I don't know much about the stock market but there was societal gains from it. Money capitalizes companies who employ large swaths of labor, shares are owned by those who have invested nothing but labor, the strength of our currency has some reliance on the volume of the market. Could be overgeneralizing here, but you get the point.

DFS is a game where people bet among each other and the site facilitates the bets, tracking, and set the prices of the game pieces. The currency involved has a fraction of the stockmarket's web of influence and benefits so small the two are difficult to compare.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPete View Post
W

I just don't understand how anyone can call what they do "bookmaking." It's basically fantasy contests among players which have existed for 25 years. You cannot wager on an outcome with the company. The only reason they are being targeted is because of their popularity (and the AG gets huge political contributions from horse racing interests and casinos which offer horrible products).


I believe their is an nj court ruling that fantasy sports entry fees are not wagers. So it's very deceptive for the AG and his media allies to throw around the term "bet" so loosely.


The AG should try out a free contest this weekend and see if he enjoys it. But he is probably like many politicians. A fake sports fan who pretends to like the mets for votes when they are winning.
To say there should be no restrictions on DFS within states is different than saying playing DFS is not betting or gambling. It surely is placing a wager on an event beyond one's control with incomplete information.

Getting abstract about what is betting is a useless game that everyone see right through. The question isn't whether or not these will viewed as games of skill like bowling and golf tournaments or chance like poker with elements of skill. The latter is inevitable because it's undeniable. The question is how the game is classified and regulated and how those classifications and regulations affect the cost and how the game is played.
Captain Oi! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 05:00 PM   #1517
John Mehaffey
Formerly Pokeraddict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: @john_mehaffey
Posts: 9,924
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

People trying to make comparisons between DFS and investing in financial markets aren't helping the DFS cause. The two are so extremely different that opponents and lawmakers will not take people seriously that make that assertion.

DFS sites are banks with shades of gambling. It needs to be approached that way with honest dialogue. If you want your voice heard, make educated arguments that will not be instantly dismissed.

Edit: I see the post above mine covered that also.
John Mehaffey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 05:26 PM   #1518
tiltstermc
old hand
 
tiltstermc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,682
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Anybody read the article on Deadspin that had FanDuel's employee policies. Man were these sites stupid. I get that in the beginning, maybe you did need employees that played so that they would know the product. But once these companies grew so quickly, not one person could see that the policy needed to be that nobody was able to play on other sites. Common sense really was forgotten about.
tiltstermc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 05:29 PM   #1519
SA16
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
SA16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: You may have heard of me.
Posts: 6,972
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Maybe the policies needed to be updated but based on the software "upgrades" and such each site has rolled out they most definitely need either employees that play on other sites or volunteer players to give them a lot of ideas/feedback while they are working on designs.
SA16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 05:36 PM   #1520
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 65,372
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
Mass AG just set out DFS regulations with a 60 day comment period. Not ideal, but somewhat reasonable.

Some big changes are
---Stricter limits on entries per contest (capped at 3% of entries for larger contests)
---21 age limit
---No late swap allowed (not 100% sure on this, lock time isn't a defined term)
---No scripts
---No college sports DFS
---Beginner only contests and ways to identify "highly experienced users"
---$1000 a month deposit limit with increases subject to asset and income verification

Hard to see sites leaving Massachusetts over this IMO. Its a big state and walking away from somewhat sensible regulations would seem like an unwise move. So guess if you play college sports DFS, enjoy it now.
the sites should jump at this.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 05:39 PM   #1521
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 65,372
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTimSalabim View Post
That sounds like a nightmare for the sites to manage. I predict they just walk away from MA.
that would be foolish. the sites are in great danger of not even existing legally. if a state is actually willing to allow them to continue with only a few regulations, then they need to lock that down.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 06:01 PM   #1522
John Mehaffey
Formerly Pokeraddict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: @john_mehaffey
Posts: 9,924
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Maybe the policies needed to be updated but based on the software "upgrades" and such each site has rolled out they most definitely need either employees that play on other sites or volunteer players to give them a lot of ideas/feedback while they are working on designs.
PokerStars has seen great success with focus groups. As dedicated as DFS players are, I bet this approach would have worked and still could for DFS.
John Mehaffey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 06:06 PM   #1523
AGame18
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AGame18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: GOAT. FORG1V3
Posts: 7,834
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltstermc View Post
Anybody read the article on Deadspin that had FanDuel's employee policies. Man were these sites stupid. I get that in the beginning, maybe you did need employees that played so that they would know the product. But once these companies grew so quickly, not one person could see that the policy needed to be that nobody was able to play on other sites. Common sense really was forgotten about.
This not getting enough attention.

Here is what the Policy guidelines said:

Quote:
Rules for Employee Play on Other Sites:

Never be among the top five players by volume on any one site (based on site leaderboards).

Never be among the top ten overall on the RotoGrinders leaderboard. Top players frequently become targets for accusations by other users.

Never account for more than 2% of entries in any tournament of more than 1,000 entries.

Never account for more than 5% of entries in any tournament of more than 100 entries. Players who swamp big tournaments with entries frequently become targets of accusations.

Don’t be the 2nd person into a head to head contest against the same opponent in more than one contest per day. This rule will greatly limit the ability to exploit information about user performance, and will also limit the likelihood of complaints from users.

Never use information gained from viewing users’ lineups.

Seek to avoid playing anyone whose lineups you saw for that time period.
You must provide FanDuel with a list of your usernames on all sites where you play for real money. We may or may not choose to reveal your employment status and identity to those sites or on other industry sites.
lol can't be real

full link here

http://deadspin.com/fanduel-told-emp...dra-1743814536
AGame18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 06:54 PM   #1524
Lawnmower Man
Pooh-Bah
 
Lawnmower Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 3,774
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

It got plenty of attention when somebody posted it like 3 days ago.

In before next week when Chainsaw posts the same link.
Lawnmower Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2015, 08:13 PM   #1525
Gzesh
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UTG
Posts: 5,358
Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPete View Post
W

I just don't understand how anyone can call what they do "bookmaking." It's basically fantasy contests among players which have existed for 25 years. You cannot wager on an outcome with the company. ...

.
The term "bookmaking" does typically mean the house taking on the outcome risk, (for a fee or "vig") and hoping to balance that risk or win its side if the proposition remains unbalanced.

However, a different variety of sportsbetting also exists, where the sponsor does NOT accept outcome risk and rather offers a marketplace where P2P bets are matched, again for a fee. See, e.g. Matchbook.com. This business model is however still illegal sportsbetting under New York and US law. To be specific about DFS, it most closely resembles matchbook model, especially when it offers HU P2P action.

I am not a NY gaming lawyer and am not offering advice as to NY laws.

(Back in 2006, I argued strongly that Poker should challenge UIGEA coverage because the operator NEVER takes outcome risk or accepts bets or wagers ......and only the Players "bet or wagered" or accepted/called bets or wagers, dependent upon outcome risk. Under the UIGEA, allocation of utcme risk actually would have been relevant.... However, the paid-for lobbyists and learned counsel preferred to try arguing "skill" instead, which had ZERO relevance under the UIGEA. But hey, what did I know about the actual role of risk in poker model, compared to a bunch of Beltway Bandit lawyers and lobbyists? )
Gzesh is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive