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Old 11-20-2015, 09:02 PM   #1526
Garrincha67
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by AGame18 View Post
This not getting enough attention.

Here is what the Policy guidelines said:



lol can't be real

full link here

http://deadspin.com/fanduel-told-emp...dra-1743814536
Laughable really, mixing arrogance with ignorance. In short, that is why you have regulation and a thing called conflict of interests.

These sites had a long time to get their house in order and now the states will do for them in an individual basis.
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Old 11-20-2015, 09:26 PM   #1527
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Sportsguydaily View Post
Hello Wall Street? His description of illegal gambling fits stock trading exactly!

Companies miss earnings by $.05 and the stock tumbles. Of course the sharks that lunch and wine and dine with the company executives already knew that, as they did when earnings hit the other way. Minnows lose. Sharks win. The only way for Average Joe to get in stocks is 401k, Mutual Funds, etc... that fee him to death, making mega-millions for the managers who do nothing, risk nothing, and lose nothing.

Leave the people alone with their money!

Add some regulation is needed though. As an extreme example FD and DK could be adding lineups after the games are completed with no penalty. Certainly the insiders are using their info. Why wouldn't they?
This is an excellent internet take
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Old 11-20-2015, 09:30 PM   #1528
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by 34TheTruth34 View Post
idk i feel like all the west coast lineups were out by 7 pm pretty much every day.
They def were not.
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Old 11-20-2015, 09:32 PM   #1529
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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In before next week when Chainsaw posts the same link.
Lol in NVG
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Old 11-20-2015, 09:47 PM   #1530
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by NDfan View Post
Lol in NVG
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=284

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...35&postcount=1
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Old 11-20-2015, 10:58 PM   #1531
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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They def were not.
lol k
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Old 11-21-2015, 03:15 AM   #1532
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Gzesh View Post
The term "bookmaking" does typically mean the house taking on the outcome risk, (for a fee or "vig") and hoping to balance that risk or win its side if the proposition remains unbalanced.

However, a different variety of sportsbetting also exists, where the sponsor does NOT accept outcome risk and rather offers a marketplace where P2P bets are matched, again for a fee. See, e.g. Matchbook.com. This business model is however still illegal sportsbetting under New York and US law. To be specific about DFS, it most closely resembles matchbook model, especially when it offers HU P2P action.

I am not a NY gaming lawyer and am not offering advice as to NY laws.

(Back in 2006, I argued strongly that Poker should challenge UIGEA coverage because the operator NEVER takes outcome risk or accepts bets or wagers ......and only the Players "bet or wagered" or accepted/called bets or wagers, dependent upon outcome risk. Under the UIGEA, allocation of utcme risk actually would have been relevant.... However, the paid-for lobbyists and learned counsel preferred to try arguing "skill" instead, which had ZERO relevance under the UIGEA. But hey, what did I know about the actual role of risk in poker model, compared to a bunch of Beltway Bandit lawyers and lobbyists? )
yes, it's bothersome when the news paper headlines use the phrase "fanduel will stop taking bets in New York." As I've played fantasy sports for years and would never call my entry fee a bet (that's not to say it could not be considered by a court to be gambling.)

But I believe David Boies stated in a press conference that this will be one of their main arguments as the sites have predetermined prizes and the results of that week's games do not influence at all what is paid out. There actually is a New Jersey case where fantasy sports entry fees were determined not to be wagers.
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Old 11-21-2015, 06:21 AM   #1533
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by CanadaPete View Post
But I believe David Boies stated in a press conference that this will be one of their main arguments as the sites have predetermined prizes and the results of that week's games do not influence at all what is paid out. There actually is a New Jersey case where fantasy sports entry fees were determined not to be wagers.
Just to put the language out there, New York and New Jersey are almost identical for the portion of the law NYAG uses as the main complaint:

New York

Quote:
2. "Gambling" A person engages in gambling when he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
New Jersey

Quote:
b. "Gambling" means staking or risking something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under the actor's control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
The New Jersey ruling pertained to seasonlong fantasy. The NY case is DFS. Note that the NYAG is parsing DFS from SL for this case. After researching this, I wonder if that is intentional to distance from the NJ case.

The argument becomes:

1) Is DFS materially different from SL?
2) Was the NJ judge wrong?
3) Does the NY judge care about this precedent in another state?
4) Does a ruling pertaining to gambling loss recovery apply to a potentially criminal case against a commercial enterprise when the plaintiff has standing as a prosecutor? (The NJ plaintiff was laughed out of court for other reasons)
5) Will this case make it to the skill basis test?
6) Was the revenue model used in SL in the NJ case different from DFS?
7) I'm sure I'm missing other points, or perhaps some of the above is irrelevant

One of the issues I always hated about Black Friday is that nobody ever confronted SDNY so that we could see what the courts thought. I don't blame the defendants. They basically got walks or close to it to cave. Here we have a scenario where the companies are fighting, one in a very aggressive manner by ignoring a demand.

One last thought is that the use of a pool doesn't seem to satisfy the legality question about booking a bet. There are certainly ways that I could have no interest in who wins, while taking rake and guaranteeing a prize pool, and have that ruled as gambling under state law. That part is why I'm not sold on the applicability of the 2007 NJ ruling.

This is going to be a landmark case in the gaming industry. I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.

Last edited by John Mehaffey; 11-21-2015 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 11-21-2015, 12:08 PM   #1534
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Pokeraddict View Post
Just to put the language out there, New York and New Jersey are almost identical for the portion of the law NYAG uses as the main complaint:

New York



New Jersey



The New Jersey ruling pertained to seasonlong fantasy. The NY case is DFS. Note that the NYAG is parsing DFS from SL for this case. After researching this, I wonder if that is intentional to distance from the NJ case.

The argument becomes:

1) Is DFS materially different from SL?
2) Was the NJ judge wrong?
3) Does the NY judge care about this precedent in another state?
4) Does a ruling pertaining to gambling loss recovery apply to a potentially criminal case against a commercial enterprise when the plaintiff has standing as a prosecutor? (The NJ plaintiff was laughed out of court for other reasons)
5) Will this case make it to the skill basis test?
6) Was the revenue model used in SL in the NJ case different from DFS?
7) I'm sure I'm missing other points, or perhaps some of the above is irrelevant

One of the issues I always hated about Black Friday is that nobody ever confronted SDNY so that we could see what the courts thought. I don't blame the defendants. They basically got walks or close to it to cave. Here we have a scenario where the companies are fighting, one in a very aggressive manner by ignoring a demand.

One last thought is that the use of a pool doesn't seem to satisfy the legality question about booking a bet. There are certainly ways that I could have no interest in who wins, while taking rake and guaranteeing a prize pool, and have that ruled as gambling under state law. That part is why I'm not sold on the applicability of the 2007 NJ ruling.

This is going to be a landmark case in the gaming industry. I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.
I suppose the sites should have also offered season long or half season long leagues in addition to the daily games. That would make them much more difficult to go after as I know many people who are not gamblers or NFL fans who are in a fantasy league because of friends or work, etc. It would make the AGs decision much less popular.
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Old 11-21-2015, 12:56 PM   #1535
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by CalledDownLight View Post
no college DFS makes some sense to me. Like, no pro football QB or NBA player is going to be swayed to throw a game bc someone offers him a cut of their winnings, but a college player who has no shot at the pros could easily be convinced for an amount that could conceivably be won.
If you convinced some star player to throw a game it wouldn't even really be that beneficial in DFS unless he was highly owned and you were able to pick a player who did better. At that point why bother with the complications of DFS - you might as well just go to Vegas (or your local casino or bookie or offshore site) and bet on the game itself if you knew the player was going to throw the game. DFS seems like less of a risk here to me than typical sports betting.
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Old 11-21-2015, 12:59 PM   #1536
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

NBA, sports investment groups among those sued over DFS

http://www.si.com/fantasy/2015/11/21...kings-fan-duel
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Old 11-21-2015, 01:16 PM   #1537
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Rendle View Post
NBA, sports investment groups among those sued over DFS

http://www.si.com/fantasy/2015/11/21...kings-fan-duel
Lawyer slipped up, forgot to include Disney, who also made a sizeable investment.
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:57 PM   #1538
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Is it safe to say that FD is run by morons? They weren't prepared for the political obstacles they were gonna face and now they aren't prepared for the geolocation issues that they are having. They could have learned from Party Poker NJ about the geolocation issues and Uber/Lyft for the political issues.

I just think this company got too big too quick and they weren't ready. I don't follow it much but whats the general consensus of how Fanduel is run so far?
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Old 11-21-2015, 04:32 PM   #1539
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Lawyer slipped up, forgot to include Disney, who also made a sizeable investment.
disney did not invest. the deal did not make it through diligence. they just came to an advertising agreement.
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Old 11-21-2015, 04:43 PM   #1540
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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If you convinced some star player to throw a game it wouldn't even really be that beneficial in DFS unless he was highly owned and you were able to pick a player who did better. At that point why bother with the complications of DFS - you might as well just go to Vegas (or your local casino or bookie or offshore site) and bet on the game itself if you knew the player was going to throw the game. DFS seems like less of a risk here to me than typical sports betting.

Way more of a risk. If there was a chalk QB from a small conf that was like 40% owned and he faked an injury 7 minutes in, there would be ways to make tons of money off something like that. CFB has enough liquidity now that you could clean up with something like that.


I always thought that was the major potential for a DFS scandal.
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:25 PM   #1541
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Onlydo2days View Post
Way more of a risk. If there was a chalk QB from a small conf that was like 40% owned and he faked an injury 7 minutes in, there would be ways to make tons of money off something like that. CFB has enough liquidity now that you could clean up with something like that.


I always thought that was the major potential for a DFS scandal.
Why is that more of a problem than just betting on the other team? You'd still have to pick a better QB and a bunch of good picks at the other positions to even benefit. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a huge edge it just seems to me if you're going to rig something like that you'd have an even bigger edge just using sports betting.
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:26 PM   #1542
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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In regards to the NBA, Gonzalez writes, “the NBA recently held itself out as an entity that staunchly rejects betting on its games when former NBA official Tim Donaghy resigned from his job”
Like, IANAL, but the NBA commish coming out in full support of legalized betting in early 2015 seems more recent than something that happened in 2007.

Quote:
If the lawsuit is later certified as a class action, thousands of other aggrieved DFS customers would be able to join it.
Seems unlikely since every customer waived his/her right to join a class by agreeing to the ToS. But maybe it is more complicated than that?
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:31 PM   #1543
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Why is that more of a problem than just betting on the other team? You'd still have to pick a better QB and a bunch of good picks at the other positions to even benefit. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a huge edge it just seems to me if you're going to rig something like that you'd have an even bigger edge just using sports betting.

Nah you wouldn't. If the QB/RB was extreme chalk, you could just join a ton of cash games w/o him and have a huge leg up on your comp. If it was a late slate where there tends to be more overlap, then you would very likely cash 5050s and crush h2h. Not to mention you get 0% exposure to him in GPPs while the field is around 40-50%, huge leg up on half the field already so you would up your entires, etc......I mean it is a huge, huge edge. The ship may have sailed on being able to do this now, but if this happened last year, no one would even think twice about it.


Getting like 200k down on a MAC game w/o raising eyebrows probably isn't easy. Although I wouldn't know...

Last edited by Onlydo2days; 11-21-2015 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:41 PM   #1544
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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Nah you wouldn't. If the QB/RB was extreme chalk, you could just join a ton of cash games w/o him and have a huge leg up on your comp. If it was a late slate where there tends to be more overlap, then you would very likely cash 5050s and crush h2h. Not to mention you get 0% exposure to him in GPPs while the field is around 40-50%, huge leg up on half the field already so you would up your entires, etc......I mean it is a huge, huge edge. The ship may have sailed on being able to do this now, but if this happened last year, no one would even think twice about it.


Getting like 200k down on a MAC game w/o raising eyebrows probably isn't easy. Although I wouldn't know...
Lol wtf are you talking about
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Old 11-21-2015, 06:15 PM   #1545
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

Getting a star player from the MAC or Mountain West to fake an injury would be insanely profitable in DFS. Just has to be in the right spot where thee will be high ownership of the player.

I'm not sure what about that statement you don't agree with.
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Old 11-21-2015, 07:39 PM   #1546
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

show your work
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:01 PM   #1547
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

I haven't played CFB this year at all, thus I haven't watched CFB so I couldn't even tell you who is good.

We'll say Fresno State QB/RB is gonna be 50% owned. You pay him 30k to fake ankle injury in the 1st quarter. You know most of the sharps/regs are going to be on him, you scoop them h2h, you join all the 5050s, all the DUs, GPPs with none of this player, etc

The late slate CFB is usually less games than early/all day so there is more overlap at the other positions besides QB/RB, a highly owned QB like that going down would be huge. Those Tuesday or Thursday 3 game slates this would work for as well, but there is less action on those slates so you can't win as much.

It is definitely potentially scandalous.
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:12 PM   #1548
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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I haven't played CFB this year at all, thus I haven't watched CFB so I couldn't even tell you who is good.

We'll say Fresno State QB/RB is gonna be 50% owned. You pay him 30k to fake ankle injury in the 1st quarter. You know most of the sharps/regs are going to be on him, you scoop them h2h, you join all the 5050s, all the DUs, GPPs with none of this player, etc

The late slate CFB is usually less games than early/all day so there is more overlap at the other positions besides QB/RB, a highly owned QB like that going down would be huge. Those Tuesday or Thursday 3 game slates this would work for as well, but there is less action on those slates so you can't win as much.

It is definitely potentially scandalous.
Is it really possible to get enough CFB DFS action to make it profitable to pay someone 30k? Seems sort of outrageous.
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:23 PM   #1549
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

You guys know sports betting has existed for decades right? I don't see why DFS is suddenly going to create rampant match fixing(or fantasy fixing).
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:35 PM   #1550
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Re: DFS Industry Discussion Thread

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You guys know sports betting has existed for decades right? I don't see why DFS is suddenly going to create rampant match fixing(or fantasy fixing).
Oh I definitely wasn't implying rampant. I just meant all it takes is 1 or 2 to get caught and it would be a huge black eye for DFS.

About the liquidity issue, yeah you could definitely scale out your action pretty nicely if you knew you had way the best of it. People post 10k games in the lobby nowadays. Then you can do it on multiple sites, etc...

It sounds far fetched but some Mountain West QB that is drawing dead on a post-collegiate career could definitely be easy to sway. And it is football, someone rolls an ankle 1st quarter, no one is going to bat an eye.
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