The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. - Page 2103 - Politics and Economics

There HAS been a definite uptick during Obama's administration and especially during The Trumpening.

You're not actually simply imagining racism being over, but it was more like racism had reached the point of climate change in terms of a general consensus, or at least was leaning in that direction. It's real, it's bad, and hey, somebody ought to do something about it. It was a small window.

And, the parallels to how climate change is viewed NOW can't be overlooked either.

this is way wrong. the racists never went away, they were just ashamed and knew to keep quiet. They were emboldened by birtherism, trumpism, etc. THey're not "upticking" (absolute numbers are probably declining), they're just more overt.

08-17-2017 , 01:44 PM

#52552

goofyballer

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Different reactions to Trump's Charlottesville comments from different parts of his cabinet!

New Chief of Staff John Kelly is already frustrated two weeks in

Quote:

But none of those attempts at discipline mattered this week. Instead, Kelly stood to the side as Trump upended his new chief of staff’s carefully scripted plans — pinballing through an impromptu and combative news conference in New York in which he inflamed another self-inflicted controversy by comparing the actions of white supremacist groups at a deadly rally in Charlottesville last weekend with the counterprotesters who came to oppose them.

The uproar — which has consumed not only the White House but the Republican Party — left Kelly deeply frustrated and dismayed just over two weeks into his job, said people familiar with his thinking. The episode also underscored the difficult challenges that even a four-star general faces in instilling a sense of order around Trump, whose first instinct when cornered is to lash out, even self-destructively.

Quote:

Despite Kelly’s switchboard requirement, the president has used his personal cellphone to reach people. And one person close to Trump described him as a “caged animal” under Kelly, saying he is always going to respond negatively to attempts to corral him or keep him to a script.

Quote:

Gary Cohn, Trump’s top economic adviser, who is Jewish, appeared with Trump at Tuesday’s news conference, standing behind the president in the lobby of Trump Tower in New York as he said that there were good people who protested alongside the white supremacists and neo-Nazis who organized the rally. Those close to Cohn described him as “disgusted” and “frantically unhappy,” although he did not threaten to resign.

But Trump felt vindicated after the remarks, said people familiar with his thinking. He believes that his base agrees with his assertion that both sides are guilty of violence and that the nation risks sliding into a cauldron of political correctness.

And on the other side, there's, who else, Ben Carson:

Quote:

Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson this week played down the violence in Charlottesville, calling the controversy over President Trump’s response “little squabbles” that are “being blown out of proportion” and echoing the president’s equating of white nationalist hate groups with counterprotesters.

In a Facebook post after the protests in Charlottesville grew deadly on Saturday, Carson said, “Let us pray for those killed and injured during the unrest in Charlottesville today, but also for our nation as it is being severely threatened by hatred and bigotry on all sides.”

08-17-2017 , 01:45 PM

#52553

pvn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 13ball

The only way a Dem could beat Corker is by helping an unpopular far-right candidate primary him. Even then the unpopular far-right candidate wins the general election ~75% of the time.

Ford Jr. came really close to winning that seat in 2006. It was a nail-biter.

08-17-2017 , 01:46 PM

#52554

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DVaut1

I agree on the a lot of the merits, save one. The scoreboard then about the kind of people we're talking about:

- pay lip service to norms of racial egalitarianism but
- don't count on them to do anything and
- actually, they'll just vote selfishly but
- they are 'good' people

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuserounder

I put quotes around good on purpose. We agree there. These are what most of society would consider good people. "Joe sure is a great guy huh? Great wife, beautiful kids, he's a heck of a Dad!"

We can count on them to not be racist themselves but not to march against it. They may go beyond lip service slightly... Like they may tell a racist in Starbucks to STFU, but they won't be found marching in counter protests.

Also, I meant to include this in my initial take but the best evidence of the majority of people being blank slates is Obama winning twice, followed by this stuff. People are just clicking buttons.

I think you guys expect a bit too much from people, unless you are trying to restrict "good" to the top 10% of people or whatever.

The above (not racist themselves, good husband/father) is about as much as you can expect out of the vast majority of people anywhere. Asking for more from most is just asking for a fundamental change of human nature.

You've got to grade the "good" on the curve of actual humans. Assuming "good" just means above average, and not elite, the people described in that post are "good" people.

08-17-2017 , 01:56 PM

#52555

All-In Flynn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

There's also a bit of E Pleb Nista going on in venerating either the founders or the documents.

08-17-2017 , 01:59 PM

#52556

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pvn

yeah all those statues of Himmler, Goring, Goebbels, et al on every street corner.

wtf are you talking about?

I would like to see this impulse of Clovis' unpacked. It's hardly unique.

The assumption that most people are not racist?

The assumption that the authorities are doing the smart and correct thing already?

The assumption that activists are out of line?

Clovis is not a racist or a fascist. He's got conservative impulses, but nothing extreme. He's a committed centrist liberal. Maybe centrists just hit the brakes really quickly because they presume everyone else is getting carried away?

As an aside, there's an interesting bunch of Nazi victim monuments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolperstein (stumbling stone)

They are little monuments on the streets or sidewalks with the names of victims. Some of them are raised slightly so that you may literally trip on them.

08-17-2017 , 02:01 PM

#52557

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

Hey guys, chin up. At least the figure that underpins our entire financial system isn't a completely arbitrary fabrication.

oh wait, yes it it.

Yeah everybody knew that literally since it was created ffs

08-17-2017 , 02:02 PM

#52558

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

If just one person got the reference then it was all worth it.

08-17-2017 , 02:02 PM

#52559

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 425kid

Eh. I mostly agree with what Matt Levine has written recently on this issue, and since he's a much better (and more informed) writer than me I'll just quote him.

TLDR is that the financial system needs an agreed upon number. LIBOR worked for that purpose even if it wasn't really based on anything. The "solution" won't really be any better than LIBOR.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...mmunist-boards

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...fargo-mistakes

My pony is arbitrary and useless.

08-17-2017 , 02:03 PM

#52560

Bleh

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Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 197

By the time Trump is done, will the Overton Window have shifted so much that "racist" isn't always seen as a negative term - publicly worn as a badge of pride by a subset of his base? You will know this happening when Hannity and Carlson are delivering screeds debating the meaning of the word "racist" and is it really wrong to be proud of one's heritage.

Er let me rephrase that - assuming Trump stays in office - what's the O/U on this happening?

08-17-2017 , 02:04 PM

#52561

StimAbuser

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Was browsing Reddit /all, and one of the top posts from r/conservative which is obviously super pro Trump

But the top reply was

Quote:

Come on now. Let's not be ridiculous.
The government isn't destroying records or falsifying history. They're moving the statues to museums where they belong, to be taken in the co

In fact most of the top replies in the thread are talking about how stupid the picture is and how putting the statues in a museum is appropriate. This is a very pro trump subreddit, so it gives me a lil hope in regards to the more reasonable Republican supporters distancing themselves from this nonsense.

2nd top comment

Quote:

Voted for Trump, and I'm definitely conservative but I don't agree with this comparison. Nobodies white washing history, the removal of this statue from a public park simply means that we aren't celebrating this figure anymore.
Was it like 1984 when they tore down Saddam Hussein's statue Iraq? No, the people just didn't want to glorify that man any longer.

thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservativ...correct_again/

08-17-2017 , 02:04 PM

#52562

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot

I want the statues to all stay simply because it makes leftists mad.

Yeah, we know! "Because liberal tears" is the entirety of conservatism in the Trump era, it's good to see you people start admitting it.

The corollary, of course, is that it makes leftists happy when the statues come down, and Trump's comments have hastened that process because he's too stupid to realize when he's saying something harmful to his own goals. So much winning!!

08-17-2017 , 02:05 PM

#52563

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by WichitaDM

Just to expand on my previous points and those of others, Donald himself positioned has campaign towards the "silent majority"

http://www.npr.org/2016/01/22/463884...t-mean-in-2016

I think that he believes and maybe rightfully so that there is a majority of at least white America that is still as much of a white supremacist as he is. And the evidence unfortunately seems to bear this out based on the election results and even the fact his support numbers have a hard floor. One reason I suspect the shocking election results occurred is that lots of people have views inside that they don't share with the people around them because they are racist and unpopular (ie the so called Silent Majority). Even though he didn't win the popular vote he won it if you exclude California and he outperformed the polls almost everywhere. 60m+ people voted for a man who was clearly a racist then and even more obviously is one now. That unfortunately tells you a lot about the actual views of our population.

In addition to the openly bigoted morons we have a very large class of closet bigots who agree with DJT and it is terrifying.

What baffles me about the white supremacy thing is this: even if you were a white supremacist, I'd think you would want somewhat competent leadership? Like, voting in the complete buffoon who agrees with you still seems -EV overall. If I were a white supremacist, I'd still have voted for Hillary.

08-17-2017 , 02:10 PM

#52564

revots33

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey

Lol I doubt that.

08-17-2017 , 02:10 PM

#52565

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kafja

Why? Nothing interesting would happen.

'People who know my father well know that he has love and respect for all people. He clearly stated that these groups and beliefs are wrong, and has condemned violence in its forms. I think the criticism has been very unfair and has distracted people from the many positive steps we have taken to Make America Great Again.'

The belief among liberals that Ivanka Trump has some kind of soul or conscience despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary is mystifying.

The Trumps are human garbage, with the possible exception of Baron.

Possible, I guess. I mean Baron might not be human garbage now but the odds are certainly in favor of him trending in that direction.

08-17-2017 , 02:11 PM

#52566

WichitaDM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey

People with stupid illogical beliefs acting illogically. Who would have ever thought.

08-17-2017 , 02:11 PM

#52567

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Repeating my own pun, Charlottesville is the tipping point for these statues. Monuments are coming down all over the country because of these Nazi bastards. Huge losers. Maybe it will be a tipping point for Trump as well.

08-17-2017 , 02:12 PM

#52568

TiltedDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Yeah, hol' up. Let's not pretend that Bush's presidency was somehow preferable to this just because the vast majority of the suffering Bush caused was overseas.

Bush's presidency was preferable to this because the vast majority of the suffering Bush caused was overseas. And also because the downside was far more limited.

08-17-2017 , 02:13 PM

#52569

WichitaDM

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Also the Trumps are probably one of the single greatest arguments against capitalism in the history of man.

08-17-2017 , 02:19 PM

#52570

Bleh

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Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Problem is the alt-right really doesn't give a **** about the actual statues. Like 0% pain from seeing one come down. Only the dip**** inbred southern racists actually care about that stuff.