The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. - Page 2100 - Politics and Economics

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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

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08-17-2017 , 09:48 AM

#52476

prana

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 8,094

Breitbart right along side Trump today.

"12 Memorials That Must Be Removed if Democrats are Serious"

08-17-2017 , 09:51 AM

#52477

TheHip41

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 27,049

Trump is advocating that people start tearing down Jefferson and Washington monuments.

You know this is going to happen in the next few weeks.s

08-17-2017 , 09:52 AM

#52478

Huehuecoyotl

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 29,320

Sadly the public is slightly in favor of keeping the Confederate monuments in place.

08-17-2017 , 09:52 AM

#52479

danspartan

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3,851

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

"On July 9, 1776, the Declaration of Independence was read for the first time in New York in front of George Washington and his troops. In reaction to what had been read, soldiers and citizens went to Bowling Green, a park in Manhattan, where a lead statue of King George III on horseback stood. The mob of people pulled down the statue, and later the lead was melted down to make musket balls, or bullets for use in the war for independence. (3) Careful records were kept, and it is known that 42, 088 bullets were made. (4)"

Pulling Down The Statue of King George III

Now we finally know what was the actual Bowling Green Massacre. Thanks. Actually never heard this before. Verified?

08-17-2017 , 09:53 AM

#52480

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVaut1

Right. I understood we were talking about monuments. The bolded is non substantive. Also understood: that apologists for Jefferson monuments argue the monuments are meant to celebrate a subset of Jefferson's contributions (the ideals we still celebrate) to the national policy, but none of his bad qualities. I get that. So no need to repeat it, and I get the point: we put up this memorial to Jefferson but we don't celebrate or justify the slave raping.

Well, that's all well and good to say. But that's just the Joe Paterno defense: we don't celebrate or justify his failure to report his employees child raping, just the good stuff he did, leave our statues alone. Most of America got intuitively that most Penn State fans were deep into a personality cult and had lost all moral reasoning when presented with those arguments.

It's unconscionable. Of course the national memory is necessarily selective, that our heros will not always be angels. But as has been pointed out numerous times now, Americans have dozens of founding figures to choose from, many of whom were actually committed abolitionists and didn't keep black women as concubines. The decision to deify Jefferson is a choice people make, not some natural consequence of the cosmic order. You can praise the Declaration and its ideals. Put up a monument to that. To the contributions. Celebrating Jefferson is collective moral turpitude. Making it personal, celebrating Jefferson as deified figure is fraught with the same moral problems of celebrating Lee. Defenders insist on knowing the intent of the erectors and the builders of monuments and proclaim it obvious we are not celebrating Jefferson the man but the ideals he wrote down that we celebrate...and then put up a statue of a man. It's quite easy to see why people would think you are celebrating the man and not just the ideals. Especially considering the man himself was a walking contradiction of the ideals he championed.

So: Why not tear out Jefferson from the Jefferson Memorial and erect a big statue of the Declaration? Yet again: celebrating Jefferson, the person, is a choice, and nowhere does it say to cherish the verbiage of the Declaration means we have to embrace Jefferson the man. But we've chosen to lionize Jefferson the man.

All true but still not strong enough. Joe Paterno is a bad analogy because his good deeds, it could be argued, outweighed the bad one. A better analogy would be putting up a statue of a priest who molested children all his life. Mother Theresa would not now be revered if she had done that. But even THAT isn't analogous because those children, harmed as they were, usually got over it to a large extent and went on with their lives. Furthermore the priests were sick men who occasionally gave in to urges. Jefferson, on the other hand calmly RUINED the life of many people simply to make money. It wasn't an urge. It was a conscious act that morally justified his murder if that murder prevented it. (I actually don't like the focus on Sally Hemmings because it distracts from the even bigger sin I just mentioned.)

I still like my idea of putting some kind of marking on these statues and on the signs referring to streets schools or whatever.

08-17-2017 , 09:54 AM

#52481

Our House

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 28,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamnotawerewolf

"On July 9, 1776, the Declaration of Independence was read for the first time in New York in front of George Washington and his troops. In reaction to what had been read, soldiers and citizens went to Bowling Green, a park in Manhattan, where a lead statue of King George III on horseback stood. The mob of people pulled down the statue, and later the lead was melted down to make musket balls, or bullets for use in the war for independence. (3) Careful records were kept, and it is known that 42, 088 bullets were made. (4)"

Pulling Down The Statue of King George III

Kellya...nahhh...

Last edited by Our House; 08-17-2017 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Damn it!

08-17-2017 , 09:56 AM

#52482

Namath12

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Kristol can be kind of a tw0t but I can't see him putting this out there if he didn't have some inside info

08-17-2017 , 09:57 AM

#52483

Our House

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 28,109

Just saw that the world leaders are speaking out against Trump. You know you're ****ed when Iran lectures you on human rights.

08-17-2017 , 09:59 AM

#52484

tomdemaine

Just tries harder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHip41

Trump is advocating that people start tearing down Jefferson and Washington monuments.

You know this is going to happen in the next few weeks.s

The left should lean into it. Why not have a frank conversation about the moral ambiguity of heroes of the past? Obviously its disingenuous whataboutism through and through but why not call the bluff? It's the easiest call ever because there's nothing to lose. What sane person really gives a **** about a statue? Tear em all down, who cares?

08-17-2017 , 10:02 AM

#52485

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVaut1

Zikzak has the correct answer but it's really just a different way of stating AllCows point. The left is poorly organized (changing slightly: Bernie, DSA, BLM, etc. are demonstrative of a nascent and growing leftist movement). But the left's propaganda organs are effectively non-existent. The right is winning the propaganda wars, because the left has collapsed for the reasons zikzak mentioned and what remains are a bunch of mealy mouthed proto right-wingers. I'd even give dereds some nods that he's approaching the truth: the left has forgotten the simple politics of motivated self-interest and inspiring class consciousness against wealthy and monied interests and become bizarro world defenders of technocractic babble as a form of political propaganda. What a mistake. The left has simple, very popular arguments (tax the rich, distribute the receipts to people who need things via things like medicine and retirement incomes). The dominant party and many of our allies simply just chooses not to make them.

I think you guys are basically in furious agreement here, it's just a different way to say the same thing. The only part I would disagree with is that liberals and the left are deeply wedded to the truth. It's pretty clear to me it's not that, that a lot of liberal and what counts for 'left' political messaging is because the left is way too gentrified and the technocractic babble brigades are basically a form of class consciousness, of class messaging. But it's hilariously politically limited, appeals only to effete centrists who are a vanishingly small percentage of the population.

Yeah I think this is fair, although I'd caveat my earlier point in that I don't think anyone is particularly wedded to truth but when liberals happen to have the facts in their favour, on issues such as climate change, they want to use them and the right laughs, denies them and then just talks about the stuff that appeals to the grievances of their base. Liberals and leftists kind of want to think that they are right the right dgaf.

08-17-2017 , 10:06 AM

#52486

otatop

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,721

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

They're not even particularly good ones.

They're not very historical, either:

08-17-2017 , 10:06 AM

#52487

MonsterJMcgee

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,001

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sklansky

Joe Paterno is a bad analogy because his good deeds, it could be argued, outweighed the bad one.

🤔

08-17-2017 , 10:08 AM

#52488

iamnotawerewolf

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 31,482

Quote:

Jefferson’s belief in the necessity of abolition was intertwined with his racial beliefs. He thought that white Americans and enslaved blacks constituted two “separate nations” who could not live together peacefully in the same country.14 Jefferson’s belief that blacks were racially inferior and “as incapable as children,”15 coupled with slaves’ presumed resentment of their former owners, made their removal from the United States an integral part of Jefferson’s emancipation scheme. Influenced by the Haitian Revolution and an aborted rebellion in Virginia in 1800, Jefferson believed that American slaves’ deportation—whether to Africa or the West Indies—was an essential followup to emancipation.16

Thomas Jefferson and Slavery

08-17-2017 , 10:09 AM

#52489

Jbrochu

banned

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16,052

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

The left should lean into it. Why not have a frank conversation about the moral ambiguity of heroes of the past? Obviously its disingenuous whataboutism through and through but why not call the bluff? It's the easiest call ever because there's nothing to lose. What sane person really gives a **** about a statue? Tear em all down, who cares?

Like 85% of white America goes ape**** if you start tearing down founding father statues.

08-17-2017 , 10:10 AM

#52490

tomdemaine

Just tries harder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbrochu

Like 85% of white America goes ape**** if you start tearing down founding father statues.

I said sane person. But seriously if it's trump advocating it let them get mad at him. Being all nooooo not my founding fathers totally plays into his 2 equal sides bull****. If he wants to pull down the Washington monument don't argue just let him take the consequences. Its a terrible argument to take on because honestly the founding fathers were "no angels" when considered from modern perspectives. Theres no upside to trying to protect them.

Last edited by tomdemaine; 08-17-2017 at 10:17 AM.

08-17-2017 , 10:13 AM

#52491

Jbrochu

banned

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16,052

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

I said sane person. But seriously if it's trump advocating it let them get mad at him.

Is Trump advocating it or does he think he's playing the gotcha game?

08-17-2017 , 10:17 AM

#52492

tomdemaine

Just tries harder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 20,056

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbrochu

Is Trump advocating it or does he think he's playing the gotcha game?

Its only a gotcha if you don't call the bluff.

08-17-2017 , 10:18 AM

#52493

DVaut1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 30,005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbrochu

Like 85% of white America goes ape**** if you start tearing down founding father statues.

If you want the winning political argument to appeal to a nation where 46% of participating voters just voted for Donald ****ing Trump, the obvious argument is to disengage from the whataboutism and simply demand these idiots justify why Confederates deserve statues and use the (bad) arguments that at least Jefferson and Washington were Presidents and did some good things too, whereas Confederates had literally no redeeming qualities or accomplishments.

08-17-2017 , 10:19 AM

#52494

bobman0330

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 24,234

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

Sadly the public is slightly in favor of keeping the Confederate monuments in place.

The poll shows the approve options (i.e., approve of removing the statues) beating disapprove by 30 points! Even among Republicans it's only -6.

08-17-2017 , 10:19 AM

#52495

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,183

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomdemaine

Because it has abso****ingloutely nothing to do with the alt right or modern day white supremacists. Stay on message and don't chase shiny objects off into the weeds.

08-17-2017 , 10:21 AM

#52496

fatkid

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 8,860

08-17-2017 , 10:23 AM

#52497

57 On Red

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 6,488

Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

I don't think the Brits should be too haughty about slavery in the US. It was their slave colony! The southern plantation owners were the royalists(fascists) that were left behind. The whole system was set up for you to get cheap agricultural products and then serve as a market for your manufactured goods. It was hard to undo and probably couldn't be overturned until the manpower supplied by fleeing Irish were up to the task.

Oh, we know, we know. And Bristol and Liverpool were largely built on the slave trade and these things come up often, as in the current attempt to find a new name for Colston Hall, Bristol's principal concert hall. Edward Colston was a great benefactor to the city, but unfortunately he made much of his money from slaving, and the name is giving people the yips. The band Massive Attack, who come from Bristol, would never play Colston Hall just because of the name.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-39718149

08-17-2017 , 10:25 AM

#52498

TrollyWantACracker

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,197

Quote:

Originally Posted by otatop

An alternative to tearing down some of these statues would be to just re-tool and re-market them. Can't imagine anyone would have a problem with this statue of Beaker from the Muppet Show.

08-17-2017 , 10:25 AM

#52499

Matty Lice

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 3,438

The funny part about the anger at these statues being torn down is the same people that are pissed about it believe in the 10 commandments. You know, the thing about having false gods.