Whose winrates? And where would that money come from?

[1] The problem is that it's no longer about poker, it's about who has the best programmers and statisticians (this isn't just semantics). Once an issue is resolved by one person using software, it can be duplicated exponentially...by everyone. (ie: HEM2/PT4). This forces everyone to adopt it or fall by the way side, and accept less reward per unit of investment....until the next break through and the cycle repeats.

[2] I agree software is taking over poker. You may be OK with this because you have the "software" and money/resources to use it to your full advantage, but if software does truly take over there won't be a poker economy left. Poker becomes just like table games at the casino. You go gamble, you know you're a long term dog, it's built into the system, you are in fact playing against computers that cannot lose. At this point I think most people would rather take their shot at 21 (why sit for a few hours getting dominated by a computer when you can have some feeling of control at a 21 table). The people that play poker for the spirit of what poker should be, will all be gone (as we all see they've been leaving in droves already).

[3] Software is a vicious cycle spiraling downward towards zero.... 0BB/100 (that is for the best and most advanced software). Thinking of it as capitalism is a huge mistake because it's not capitalism at all in fact it's the inverse. In capitalism, progress means expansion and growth because markets grow, the pie is always growing bigger. Yeah there is more competition, more complexity, but the pie is bigger every year. It's the opposite for poker because the effect of progress in poker decreases win rates, and win rates are already low in poker. There is no growth, only contraction. If anything, it maaaay be an example of what happens to capitalism when all the resources run out and the growth stops, and the world economy comes crashing down (and the few people rich enough, with the best space navigation software, escape to Mars).

The ****ty thing is I love software......

All the illegal and legal software combined hasn't killed online poker as much as certain gambling sites owners have.

There's greater issues to be dealt with than HUDs. This is just another case of blaming the 11th child, who underaged has to leave the poor family, for being born in the first place.

Does this concern you at all?

It seems like if online poker basically becomes people with real time pseudo-GTO programs playing against each other, then it will end up with one or two organisations competing to build the best software, and the only people left playing online will be fun players and representatives of these organisations, and the fun players will gradually disappear and the whole thing will go away.

I'm not saying I have a solution to this, I'm just curious to hear if you are worried about this, or, if you have other plans, if you think people who like to play poker against other people online, and hope to have a chance to beat them, should be worried.

Jason Mo is Carrycakes on stars. I think he was using the azn_baller3 reference as an example of a more degen/feel guy who defo didn't use programs. He also mentioned Isildur in the same vein.

As for software its crazy how advanced it is. No wonder bots are so powerful now. You can literally plug in ranges and bet sizing and get GTO solutions for multiple streets on like 3+ different programs. There is no way humans can compete with that.

https://gyazo.com/98b4f291ffbe016ed1a433b9c303d965

Then once you think about other aspects. Like say you are smart and hardworking and want to spend time analysing a bunch of flop turn and rivers to get your own poker intuition to a high level. You also have to think of the fact that these softwares could easily be accessed in real time. If for instance the cards you are dealt and flops/turns/rivers were relayed to a sperate PC and can be calced in under 30seconds then you're basically playing a gto bot.

The rabbit hole goes very deep.

good posts

Poker is a fascinating game to try to solve(even with the aid of software) but this stuff will make online games not worth playing, and probably a lot sooner than we'd like. I'm not really sure what could even be done about it, machines and technology improve at an incredible rate and I don't see any plausible ways to prevent program usage.

What online players don't realize is that this is what makes live poker good. The recreational players are incapable of folding for an hour in a full ring game. If they're getting 25 hands an hour that means if they want to play poker they have to play bad hands in poor position. Most of them are fully aware that those hands are "bad" but have no idea how much money they lose playing them. Even most of the winning regs loosen up more than they should.

I've had the misfortune of playing on electronic live tables. It actually tracks how many hands an hour you get, in my case it ranged from 50 to 60. The atmosphere was just like any other live game. People were sociable and talked very questionable strategy and made very questionable decisions. And it was like trying to extract water from stone because people played exactly as many hands per hour as people do at real tables getting 25 hands per hour. This meant that people were playing more than twice as tight. And with more than twice as much money being raked off the table every hour, the game was close to unbeatable. But all the regulars loved that you got twice as many hands.

Online poker will never be nearly as good as it was in the old days. You can't enforce "no software", people will use custom software. You can't enforce a multi-table limit, people will play on multiple sites at the same time. The only thing you can do, I think, is invent new games, and enjoy them for the few months before it is solved, before software is widespread, before they can be played anywhere else.

Ya this hasn't been explored nearly enough. I think it would be interesting if there was a mixgame zoom. It would add a new game every month or so, and remove an older one. With every new game released they could make some introduction and strategy videos, it would be a chance to show off their sponsored players, with pre-release matches of them playing against each other and talking about their plays.

I was comparing it mentally to Hearthstone. I play quite a bit of Hearthstone, but my play definitely correlates with how much new content there is, I play a lot after they add cards and then slowly play less and less, spiking again with a new expansion. There isn't really a good format in poker for people who want to explore, or to do something new. Strategy gamers who enjoy innovating and discovering don't really have a place in poker at the moment.

Sounds good in theory but it would take hours/days before software had approx solutions for diff games. It's all math after all and computers can do that 100kx faster than humans.

I agree. One variant I'm surprised we don't have is a 3 card holdem. Either 3 face down at the beginning, played no limit just like NLHE is today (but with the advent of software for PLO not so sure this will do much). OR a pot limit version where you get 2 in the hole, there is a 3 card community flop (as per normal), the turn is dealt face up to each player, and river community card.

Very good point. This is exactly why I love playing live, and got fed up playing online even before Black Friday would've forced me to anyway. People do loosen up out of boredom live, which allows me to loosen up as well.

I think there has been a hell of a lot misinterpretation here.

I think PA is hinting as things far more advanced than a hud.

If anyone remembers junglemans podcast with joey, where he said he would never play ike at high stakes PLO because he had pretty awesome GTO bot... Well this was like a year ago. Imagine how much more advanced this kinda stuff is now!!!

Before anyone further insults PA, I am almost certain he is the biggest winner ever online. I know for a fact he was the largest winner on ladbrokes by a significant margin in its absolute glory years. Plus he was an end boss on all euros before he crushed ftp.

How about speed tables? Like super, super, fast. Maybe 5 seconds per street or something and 10 seconds on the river. It would be pretty hard to punch in numbers on a gto program and multi table in that amount of time.

If i ask you 12084 x 2943 its prolly gonna take you a while. If i ask a calculator its gonna answer instantly. Bots may have some weaknesses but processing speed isn't one of them lol

It seems like it Would be kind of hard to 8 table super fast tables + punch **** into a separate computer or w/e the **** these guy's use

Cash game players and players online are very different stats. According to pokerscout, stars has lost about 22% of their traffic in the last 6 months. So yeah, a few years might be optimistic. I don't know why so many people on 2+2 are cavalier about this.
http://www.pokerscout.com/SiteDetail...s&ab=257816462

People itt are talking about different things. Some are talking about 'traditional' HUDs like HEM/PT & some are talking about GTO software that reads the gathered HUD info & then uses GTO intel/strat to tell you what is the "optimal" play every time the action is to you.

Both are "software" but the differences are day/night. HUDs like HEM/PT alone don't even come close to guaranteeing success in and of themselves. Once you have a HUD like that, utilizing it to be a winning poker player takes vast amount of skill, especially as you move up the stakes. However, I have heard mention itt of the HUDs that not only track every stat like a traditional HEM/PT, but that TELLS you what play to make. As far as I am concerned that is 100% a bot and cheating - gto bot?

If you have some **** telling you what to do, then any monkey could win at that by just following instructions. Is there ****ing software that does that and that is legal at major sites? It's this kind of **** that would turn poker into slot machine concept where youre just playing vs gto machines + rake and youre done for.

what I found really more curious is after reading what PA said I checked for what doug said in regards to HUD and lo and behold in one interview he says he doesnt even use a HUD.now Im sure he uses alot of tools to improve but assuming he didnt lie I have even more respect now, I honestly thought top100 hunlhe online everyone uses Hud for sure...kinda OT maybe but found it worth mentioning.
edit:I mean Hud like hem2/pt4

I think people like Jungleman are defending software in the sense of HEM/PT type that provides you info but not a command/recommendation on actual play. Is there is actually legal "gto bot" type software being used? Obvi that **** is indefensible and horrible. Was Patrik even referencing that??

Nobody really cares about HEM/PT and having VPIP/PFR stats and all that. People will complain, and that's cool, and there may be justification, but at this point, it is what it is and that hardly "solves" the game. The issue is the deeper analysis that people can do with programs.

When you can analyze how someone plays on unique board textures and know their tendencies when it's a two-to-a-flush flop when they hold the Ax blocker or AsXs draw is beyond what most people did six years ago with software. But even then, that's probably within the realm of study. But when you have programs that can tell you what frequency you should bet on these textures assuming opponent's range of holdings, how much to bet, and all of the permutations of this, you're going past "human" study.

But it is semantic, at the heart, because it's not like you could never do this pre-BF. It's not like it would be hard to filter hand histories by texture, study, and work out GTO solutions on your own. The difference is that it's easier with a computer.

So, hypothetically, say that you ban "software." Now what? You can still download your hand histories, feed them into the same programs, and have them up on a different computer while playing. You can still analyze how people play in almost exactly the same way only you don't have the overlay of a HUD. Does this make you happier? Probably not because it is, in effect, the same ****.

The reason people do this now is because five years ago, they didn't have to. It's not like smart people didn't play poker pre-BF, but why spend time "solving" the game when you can exploit larger weaknesses? The issue is that people plugged them, margins are smaller, and now you have to exploit the more minute weaknesses. It was bound to happen. Poker sites can't do anything to fix it. You can't introduce new games to fix it. It's probably better to find fishy live games because edges will be bigger and you can make up for the fact that you see fewer hands.

That's gold, Jerry! GOLD!!!

This so much. The only people talking about HUD's in this thread are people trying to put other people on life tilt by bringing all poker technology into the argument. Claiming Patrik or anyone else is blaming technology is a great way of avoiding what Patrik and others are actually referring to.

This also. HUD's are helpful. Bots are gaining unfair competitive advantage, period.

+1
HUDs are totally fine and basically a necessity | GTO dream machines should probably be banned (if they aren't figuratively already) really if they are explicitly telling you what to do as opposed to the player having to interpret what he sees (the stats) and coming up with a strategy to win from those.
However, there's an argument that training sites/videos are people who are supposed to be winning players (often aren't which is quite the chuckle) telling you what to do.
Of course as this isn't realtime in-depth assistance it's nowhere near as bad and there's not always the guarantee that what they are saying is good advice anyway.

I think the wording 'unfair' is not really correct, ofc you lose EV or 'edge' playing without software.

Its like me playing Tennis against Federer, is that an unfair game? If the rules are followed its a completely fair game, it just not competitive at all.

IMO unfair implies that rules are broken, might be wrong here since English is not my native language.

Ike was using his PLO bot on isil at 200/400 today playing two tables strangely slow. Pretty sure he get Blom for 100k or so before someone warned him to quit