This thread turned into a /r/AMA/

You don't have to use hood and other tools to be successfull. Not addressing this to 10 nl multitablers , because i can not relate to that **** in no way really, to me its just painfull. Many good players don't use hood or other, its a fact. However, with other tools available, where you don't have to make any decisions yourself, especially in micros and small stakes, its becoming less interesting for recreational players to play online, when most of the people they are facing are playing identical style, basically he feels helpless and will eventually either start using the same tools himself , which is unlikely, or will quit playing online. Vast majority of poker players , recreational by big majority, do not want to use any tools, they come to have fun. We will see less and less of those people around and then its just a matter of time when good regs realize they are wasting their time and thats when its the end. I used to hate live poker, only played online for years, but lately i am being a lot more attarcted to it just due to the fact that there is more poker live.

WOW WTF

I didn't know it was THAT much of a deal. So at least a couple of highstakes PLO guys are using a real time software, which tells them how to play their range in every spot. I mean that is ****ing cheating?!

Can anyone tell me who Jason Mo is and what games he plays? He mentioned AZN_Baller, maybe thats him?

We really need a new thread for this and out the names of the guys, who are cheating. There are not too many HSPLO guys, who are crushing over a long period of time.

My guess is that Patrik knows even more and some of you wonder why he doesn't like playing online anymore?

Pretty much this.

A future of online poker filled with programmers and their bots is no future at all. It will eventually die. Sure there will always be a few fish who think they can outplay machines that have "solved" the game but their money won't be enough to satisfy the bot cartels.

Laugh all you want at the live MTTers, but that game will survive for generations because it is the essence of competition and players crave that competition.

There's a reason why Rubik's cube sales are a mere fraction of what they were in the 80's. Today you fiddle with it, watch a video, solve it, and it's no longer fun. When poker is solved, it's no longer fun and will be as popular as chess. That won't happen to live poker but it's probably going to happen within a few years online.

+1

I don't know why PStars and other sites are asleep at the wheel on this one. PStars should at least try a third-party software free/2 table max group of tables to see how the rec players feel about it.

Without the constant inflow of rec players and deposits it is just a game built around a diminishing pool of money being carved up between rake and withdrawals.

ya except that theres 145,000 ppl on pokerstars on a wednesday right now.

but online will be dead in a few years sure sure

pokerstars isnt the be all and end all of poker. Ipoker Is virtually 25% of what it used to be 6 years ago. Microgaming is a ghost town, Ongame? No idea what happened to that network. Partypoker? LOL. Nothing there these days and Pokerstars has been on a slow decline too.

Too late. Thread went full ****** already at post 28

... and every employee at McDonald´s will beat your hourly rate lol (assuming you´re winning at all).

Hud's aren't even important in his games. The player pool is so small you get a good idea quick of how people play. If he isn't willing to work off the tables that's his problem, and assuming people won't try and develop tools to help themselves improve, in any pursuit, is foolish.

If you think there are "hudbots" in 2015 above 10nl, you're wrong, almost any nl player that bets above 50nl is pretty darn good at poker. If you think you only lose cause of huds and trackers, then play on Bovada or Unibet and take all the money.

I feel like when even a mod can't stay on topic..... it's time to give up NVG.

i hope your on the presidential ticket this fall, you got my vote. Character Build!

his old 2+2 name was klink10k, Jason Mo is part of the "evil empire" consisting of Dog Pork, BigKoreanDonger and himself, and probably that cheats dude. He got a pretty good insight id say when it comes to this type of stuff.

LOL. One one of the all time legends of poker says 'Its a numbers game now' and

All of your opinions are moot (mine too). But, if living in denial about the bigger picture of online pokers future keeps you happy, then, I wish you well.

And, Testi, stick to railing poker and posting HH's, your good at that bro.

And one of the biggest online winners of all time aswell (if not the biggest)

he's got all the answers, he knows exactly what the future brings

How does that work? When the hud goes away the hud user is no longer able to count combos or play his default strategy? Being an intractable hudtard he can no longer estimate opponent tendencies with his two eyes and make appropriate adjustments?

This sort of argument could only be made by people who have no idea how poker works (unless by plummet you mean a small reduction).

Not really surprising, but quite sickening. Patrik would be well informed he is smart, rich and surrounded by old/new school gamblers, word gets around about these sorts of things. (Edit: I know some rich fish gamblers, they bet high stakes on horses and stuff, used to play online, dont anymore - when even these people tell me 'people use software to cheat' you know the game is ****ed - now they might be talking about HUDs etc but theres no smoke without fire.)

Stars need to ban all 3rd party software, incl HUDs, if they want poker to grow/not die.

I agree. You can't blame the players for the broken system. Blame poker sites for creating an extremely unsustainable environment.

Whether software is "fair" or not greatly hinges on what "fair" actually means. It seems to me the difference between not having access to software and having access is similar to the difference between not knowing theory and knowing it--The gaps in both can be crossed with a little money and or effort. It's not as though no one in the first world doesn't have access to either, and even with enough effort/money you could have your own stuff made (though it isnt worth it unless you play the highest stakes). Both theory and software are not against the rules, so what's the problem? If you would want to argue that software is "unnatural" in poker then you have a problem with semantics as well because what is "natural" can also be arbitrary.

The problems with live poker are that it is SLOW as hell, options are limited, and you have to deal with random other nonsense like moving money around, politics or whatever. You play like 20ish hands per hour compared to the hundreds of hands per hour potentially played online... Sims, online records, etc show sporadic variance is and because of how SLOW live poker is it can take years to a lifetime to build a sample that is truly meaningful in terms of winrate depending on what you are playing. The difference in pace is also the main cause of the difference in the games... Online, people who actually compete must consider every detail/possible leak of their game whereas live mistakes are not punished so swiftly and it is much easier to focus on the "right" call of a big pot or whatever. Because poker has tons of variance and many things are, in fact, not intuitive (another somewhat arbitrary word), it really is just a matter of time before software takes over online poker because that really is the only way forward once intuition is no longer useful for pushing one's game. Looking at it this way, it seems that the addition of software to poker is essentially just a byproduct of capitalism. I don't really see how using software could be unfair or unethical unless a site forbids its use, in which case the matter of fairness is now just a matter of technicality.

As for live poker being "real poker" in that you can see your opponent, make a read, or whatever, for sure that factor applies in some sense. However, in my experience aware/educated players don't give off a ton of tells compared to marks etc. Even so, variance as well as confirmation bias still greatly applies, and much more so than people think...

The problem is that an outlook like this is why online poker in its current form canibalises itself. And the equity share that an every day of the mill high steaks star possesses gets diluted as the online player equity pool shrinks....

Time to level the online felt. /thread

Dont have anything else to add.

u've gotta be pretty ******ed to not be able to learn how to use pt4 and complain about software. and having pt4 doesn't automatically makes u a winning player, still have to do work

I wonder if Patrik has been watching isildur lately?

If someone just started reading this thread without knowing anything about poker they'd assume that HEM/PT was an extremely expensive purchase that only the top 0.0001% of the population have enough money to gain access to.
HEM costs $100, people. If fun players really did feel as though they'd be able to beat the games with the addition of buying a HUD then 'cking buy a HUD. We're not talking thousands of dollars.