Sean,

I appreciate the response, but what you're saying simply isn't true.

Since "PMI" was never authorized to process your transactions, then it follows logically that my personal information - specifically my banking information - is absolutely not secure.

Further, since you obviously know exactly who "PMI" is, and this company was never authorized to process transactions on your behalf, please turn over their information to us so that we can file criminal charges against them.

PMI billing these same charges every month for three months in a row is a clear and obvious indicator of their attempt to commit fraud.

Thanks in advance for your prompt reply.

EDIT: Added...

Finally, I want to add that we told you about this repeatedly, and it took months to get anything from you other than "We didn't use PMI". Your customers had to close bank accounts, file chargebacks, waste countless hours (and I don't just mean me), so that you could say, "Oops, it's all better now." ...but it's not all better now. PMI isn't just an accidental double-charge. PMI was continually charging people. They were going to keep doing so until people called them. They charged people for amounts that they didn't deposit on Full Tilt Poker. If you're not going to take more aggressive action, turn PMI over to us and let us handle it -- since you're unwilling or incapable of doing so.

EDIT2:

Yes, now I'm pissed. Give us PMI so we can put their head on a pike.

This sums everything up. Whether the bank (which bank, again?) "inadvertently" used PMI (which is doubtful) or not, at some point PMI went into business for themselves and decided to use the information they had received (FTP players bank account information) to steal money.

FTP has to understand this. Also, a statement needs to be sent to EVERY player on FTP, warning them of this ongoing fraud.

Remember, the fact is NONE of the money has been refunded, except in the cases where the affected were able to contact PMI and request a refund. That doesn't sound like an innocent error that has been refunded to me.

If FTP has tracked it to a particular block of transactions, I'd imagine that, at the minimum, they need to notify those customers en masse.

FTPSean, this is important.

NOBODY HAS BEEN GIVEN A REFUND PASSIVELY.

PMI hasn't "just" given anyone a refund. You had to notice and you had to get lucky and get through to their customer service number. If I managed to find nearly 50 affected users, then there's hundreds of people who got screwed.

Not to blame you FTPSean, i'm assuming that's all you're allowed to say regarding the matter. But that follow up was so inaccurate it's ridiculous. PMI claiming they refunded everyone? That's a joke....

Yeah, Sean's statement reeks of the legal department.

Please go back to your legal department and tell them that:

1. PMI hasn't refunded everyone.
2. PMI did more than process old transactions, they double and triple dipped.
3. If our banking data got to PMI, and it wasn't supposed to go to PMI, then no matter how you slice it, YOU HAVE A BREECH OF OUR DATA.

Unfathomable that every response ftp gives on this has a "finality tone" to it. Sean it's an ongoing problem UNTIL YOU PROVE IT ISN'T, not the other way around. I realize you are updating your position mostly, and included the line about not having been given the customer/player list yet, but it reads like PR spin instead of facts wrt all accounts being refunded.

Not a dime of my money gets played on your site until I see proof that people not posting in this thread were both 1) affected, and 2) refunded.

And until it's shown that everyone who has posted has secure accounts now. In other words it'll take at least a couple cycles of this issue not happening after you've shown proof of non 2+2ers being refunded before I play on your site.

Nothing in this thread suggests you've actually verified the refunds or can promise security to those already affected.

Guys, let him have it. PM away!

Also, if you never received a refund until you were able to get through to PMI, PM him as well. Because that is not PMI refunding the money voluntarily due to an "error", that is you backing them into a corner and forcing them to refund it.

I'm going to a meeting. Perhaps I'll cool off in the meantime.

So a mistake was made by someone and now it's cleared up. Shuffle up and deal.

The only problem is that 3 months ago PMI said the same thing "its a technical error" and will be cleared up....But that clearly didn't happen.

I get the feeling next month will be the same as the last 3

Sean/Doug

Thank you for getting back to us (eventually). I think it is our right as customers to know who this PMI is. Is it a shell for a company named NATIONAL PAYMENT PROVIDER?


How did this company gain information? IF you guys never had legal dealings with PMI, then how did they get this information?

Why have you guys not alerted all players about the problem?

Do you know HOW MANY players were affected in total? Is this something you guys can track?

IF this is a one time computer error, why have players been charged several times in arow. We as a community are on our 3rd go round with charges, and will probably be charged around the end of April as well.

What do you same to the claim that PMI is using other names to continue to withdraw funds, getting around banks and transaction blockers?

try reading the thread.

Does anyone still have their bank account open? We need to find out if PMI is still attacking in April. If they do charge again, this should clearly show FT is full of crap.

Can everyone affected please check your deposit records. Does the claim of july hold up? It is a very easy process of going into the cashier, hitting history and pulling up past transactions.

I did have a few 100 dollar deposits onto FT in July, the same amount taken by PMI. Does this match everyone else's as well?

It matches me.

Another meaningless set of platitudes from FTP which says basically:

1) Not our fault (obv. not true)
2) Customer information is secure (obv. not true)
3) The charges were done in error (obv. not true)
4) Everyone affected was automatically refunded (obv. not true)
5) None of our customers bank accounts were ever compromised
(laughably not true)
6) You are safe from this happening again (Oh really, prove it.)

Nope sorry... Fail #2 (or Fail #MANY in fact) for FT. Not one more dime of my money does FT see and anyone who DOES continue to play there better get all they can because something just ain't kosher.

I had a $200 deposit to FT on July 24, 2010. That was my only deposit in July. $200 has been taken from my account 3 times (so far). I have been refunded $400 by my bank so far. Have gotten through to PMI, who said they'd refund the money, but nothing yet.

So Sean, I'm still out $200 (which will hopefully be refunded by my bank or PMI), a lot of time dealing with this, and any trust for FTP. The situation is not resolved for me, and especially not for the many players who have probably been affected and not realized it yet.

But gee whiz you were AUTOMATICALLY REFUNDED, and IT ONLY HAPPENED ONCE, Sean just said so. Maybe he meant REFUKDED instead?

We won't know about PMI attacking us again in April unless:

• Someone didn't contact PMI and never got their funds back, or
• PMI just brazenly does it again, even to those of us they fixed.

I'll consider a line on the spreadsheet for this. I know I have a $200 transaction around that time, but I can't check my FTP deposit history until I get home, which won't be for 12 hours.

so because he said the glitch happened to those who deposited in July and it does match deposits you made in July you believe him?

Im not saying Sean is lying but there is another scenerio you might not be thinking of. Perhaps FTP looked at their records and saw that they were using "PMI" as a payment processor only in July. That would make it easy for them to then claim that the error occurred to those who deposited in July.

Heres what i want to know:

1. If this error occurred in July and was just a one time glitch then how come some people got hit several times by unauthorized charges?

2. if "PMI" was not trying to scam its customers then why were they so hard to get in touch with on the telephone?

3. Now that FTP has admitted that the unauthorized charges had to do with people depositing on their site what are they going to do to make sure all their customers know to check their bank records? shouldnt a mass email be in order?

Yea I know we wont know yet. But we need to find out to show FT there BS response is unacceptable. And IIR people claimed that PMI charged them

A. after their bank refunded them and blocked future transactions
B. PMI refunded them, yet they were still charged again.

Self righteous indignant condemnation seems to play well in this thread. Seems silly to me. You have to let it go and move forward. These are the times we live in. Depositing and cashing out has been made ridiculously complicated because of petty men in Washington who want to enrich their allies and friends. Your anger should be pointed toward those who destroy what we love, not toward those who buck the odds in order to let us keep playing.

Make a decision. It is either to stressful and complicated for you to continue playing because you can't handle deposit and cash out mishaps, or you are willing to fight through the hassle and continue to play a game you enjoy because you are a free man and don't want politicians telling you how to live your life or what to do with your money.

There are not many sites left for us to play on. When there are none will you then be happy? FTP isn't intentionally trying to steal your money. They just have to do things in a roundabout way to get money flowing into and out of the site. You can see how smoothly things run for FTP with their international players outside of the USA. Nobody is complaining. Only Americans are complaining because they have a tough time keeping us in the game because of politics. Do you want them to quit trying? I don't. So move on, it's over.

Sean's not lying. He's relaying a statement obviously crafted by the Full Tilt Poker legal department. Don't shoot the messenger. ...but lets make sure the messenger has the right message to take back to Full Tilt Poker's legal and banking teams.

PMI was, obviously, scamming us. They lied about the status of your refund when you called, "Oh, we processed it yesterday..." and they billed us THREE TIMES for what was supposed to be on erroneous duplicate charge miss-sent to the wrong processor. ...but they were hard to get to on the telephone because it's likely just one person sitting in an office somewhere answering the phone from time to time because that's what her bosses told her to do for $8 an hour. [Did we all speak to the same professional sounding accent-neutral lady?]

Sean (and Doug, thanks for checking in) -- please return to your corporate legal overlords and inform them that the peasants aren't satisfied with "Let them eat cake!" You and your bank fumbled with our banking data. It was given to dishonest people. What is being done to make sure that this doesn't happen again? What can we do to pursue remedy with PMI ourselves? Who, exactly, is PMI? When will you have a comprehensive list of all those who were impacted, and will you be proactive in both notifying them and assisting them in correcting your mistake?

Mine does NOT match, they charged me two $38 transactions, a number that i have never deposited on full tilt. My bank account is still open and they have not charged me again, the 2 unauthorized charged i incurred was in february

Just wanted to chime in here that everyone shouldn't hold their breath for FTPSean to respond. Took him a week to copy/paste some blabber from the legal department, so I expect him to take another week to highlight and press control V again.

FTP is a joke, more people should abandon the site like apefish has. I wonder how big of boycotters has to be for them to care, if the group has an average rake of $1k a month (I'm guessing they keep $700 of that b/c of rakeback).

Full Tilt Poker has a responsibility to safeguard my personal information. No matter which 3rd party had the error, Full Tilt Poker failed to correctly safeguard my personal information and needs to bear the responsibility of cleaning up this mess.

Full Tilt Poker still makes money hand over fist. They can afford to bring the full weight of their legal and financial teams to task on this problem.

Your silly "don't hate the player, hate the game" diatribe is a waste of keystrokes.

Full Tilt Poker screwed up.

Full Tilt Poker needs to assume full responsibility and take swift action to protect its paying customers.