+1

LOL, ok its only the EXACT same thing happening to one of ftps processors but irrelevant.

I thought the issue was a processor of ftps six months later running the same credit/debit, every month for 3 consecutive months without the users knowlage.
What was I thinking telling this story of a processor of ftps six months later running the same credit/debit, every month for 3 consecutive months without the users knowlage.

Added.
Updated.
Thanks to Mike Haven for updating the first post.

Just got a $100 debit with the bank memo "FTilt", usually it goes to the processor name the next day, I will let you know if it says PMI but I suspect it will. I havent deposited onto FT in months.

EDIT: Don't add me yet, possible its an old deposit, I reconciled but always the chance I missed one from 6+ months ago

I discussed this possiblity with a friend recently. It's possible that PMI simply set the recurring bit by accident when processing mistaken outdated transactions, but if so, Full Tilt Poker and PMI would have fixed it by now - and we wouldn't be calling them to get our money back.

It's reasonable speculation as to how PMI got into this in the first place.

I doubt it. Full Tilt Poker is taking months to process transactions, and the descriptor you see seems indicative of normal processing.

...but keep us posted if you get something odd.

He was talking abut Epassporte putting money into his account, so I didn't see the relevance.

Agree to disagree.

# of times hit: 2
$ Amount taken: $38 each transaction
Matches deposit: I've never done a $38 deposit
Refund? After calling PMI about 8 times in 2 days, i got a
hold of a lady who claimed it was a 'glitch' they had found
out about a day or two before, 2 days after i called, my
money was refunded

I guess I was one of the lucky ones, as my checking acct hasn't been effected by the double dipping, but I've been following along.

Is it possible that FTP/PMI don't actually KNOW which accounts have actually paid off those original checking account debits due them? I mean PMI seems to be paying ppl back that have complained. FTP being quiet for the most part.

In the past FTP, and PS btw, have bitten the bullet and eaten literally millions of dollars when a processor has been shut down and assets seized. They have always credited the player back the $$ that was "in transit". Combine that with the deadbeats that didn't/couldn't pay off after freerolling.

Eventually that would have to say enough is enough, and not cover anymore. This surely was one reason hoping for legislation to be passed, as the status quo (at the time in December, not now) couldn't be sustained much longer. Add to that, the additional processors that have been shut down since and the possibility that they didn't even know which players had paid their outstanding checks or not, and that brings us to this place.

Once a processor is grabbed by the DOJ etc, all records go with them. Whats to say that FTP and current processors have no idea what legit players $$ were confiscated? They surely couldn't admit this publicly, so how would they handle it aside from looking to recoup...possibly AGAIN...what they legitimately think they were due?

I'm not defending FTP here or PMI, but it seems like this could be a possibility, especially since in post cases it seems the new debits are the same amounts that were legitimately once really due. If it's anywhere near the truth, FTP has no choice but to come clean and just ask the players in question for copies of bank statements etc, which could solve a lot of the issues.

Just food for thought.

Updated.

Is $38 the sort of deposit that you would make - in terms of relative size? Sub $100?

Nah, my deposits were typically 100 or 200 dollars

Notes added, thank you. That makes you a particular interesting case.

needs to be on first page bump

After reviewing the NVG thread more closely: Notes updated to include 47 Two Plus Two members impacted by PMI.

Of the 13 who responded if the amounts matched those of Full Tilt Poker deposits, 9 (almost 70%) are YES

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CLa1m8sD

I'll update the picture shortly.

If you were involved and have missing information on the spreadsheet, please contribute by posting concisely:

1. How many times did PMI take money from you?
2. How much money each time?
3. Did this amount match any Full Tilt Deposits, especially from mid-late 2010.
4. Did you get money back, either by calling PMI and/or your bank?
5. Any other pertinent information.

Back to the front page... BS that it's not stickied.

This is an important thread and maybe it should be stickied but sticky threads often get overlooked or only read initially and people don't follow-up as posts are added. It may be better to just keep it on the front page then as a sticky

Ok so normally I'd be grinding tonight (for like 8 or 9 hours) but I'm only a member of one online poker site and I don't feel much like playing there at the moment.
As much as I'm enjoying The given day by Dennis Lehane if I read for more than 2 hours straight I get antsy.
I could pop to the off license and get an 8 pack and watch THX1138 but something about drinking alone always seems a little sad.
Long story short I've had some time on my hands.
Hope you enjoy the result.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ormal-1018783/

I also found Ragz' post perfectly relevant.

It shows that a precedent exists for this sort of thing. Epass sure as hell wasn't putting money INTO his account on purpose!

I think this thread could use a little less knee-jerk villainizing and wild speculation and a few more deep breaths.

Most people here are taking the most pessimistic and cynical tack available.

Given the circumstances, I can understand why people are upset and worried, but fanning the flames by wildly pointing fingers and creating an atmosphere of distrust and paranoia, well before the facts of the situation are well-understood by those in a position to understand them, is counterproductive.

There may be a gag order on Full Tilt employees discussing or even acknowledging this issue at this time, for the same reason that after an arrest you don't make so much as a peep until you have legal counsel.

PMI is giving everybody the same story when you call them and ask for your money back, but that may also be a protective measure. They can't just say "we ****ed up badly and have no idea which of these transactions are mistakes, but by alerting us that one of yours was one of them, we can now give you your money."

The "we discovered this 2 days ago" story could just be self-preservation, crude but necessary. A business must avoid admitting mistakes when possible, especially if it's partnered with another business.

Having said all that, all things considered, I can't help but lean slightly toward the "this was intentional" side.

Not to attack you personally but the argument that they are 'protecting their business' is a load of crap (FT I mean), their first priority should be their customers financial/informational security as they promised people just that. Instead their tactic is to deny any and all responsibility or even ties to the problem when it is plainly obvious that the ONLY possible link between people who were double charged (imo scammed or robbed is almost a certainty) is that they had banking information on FT. Bare minimum, FT e-mails customers and warns them to check their accounts for erroneous charges, BARE MINIMUM. That can't possibly endanger any legal or criminal case.

I just found this thread today, and it appears this has been a raging controversy for a couple weeks now, so I can't imaging FT hasn't had the benefit of legal counsel. Couple things have me (4 year FT player) downloading PS now:

Mostly the claim that they never share your bank account info, which they clearly do. Happily, I deposited with a credit card that has since been closed out, but I'm not happy about the prospect of having to cash out.

Their saying nothing is a raging huge problem. I wouldn't care if it was them or their business partner if this hit me. If I give you my info and you give it to someone else and THEY screw me over, you make it right.

Get with it, Full Tilt. The reason your entirely UNregulated industry is afloat at all is trust. Right now, somebody posts that a major poker site ripped them off and a host of people show up to say how impossible that is. Ignore things like this and watch it change. People will stop saying things like "Stick to the major sites (FT and PS) and you'll be fine."

One time I was told they were going to basically auto-ignore/delete anymore e-mails I sent in to them if I e-mailed them anymore about a particular situation.

You haven't tried hard enough until you get to that point.

Hello again Palimax,

My returns of 3*50 bucks were not due to my bank as I never contacted them. The amounts are NOT equal to any Full Tilt deposits I've had and I have every one accounted for.

Hope this completes my line on the spreadsheet (I would pm you but I don't think I have enough posts). I got a hold of PMI after 3 attempts and my story lines up w/ others that have spoken to them (i.e., having my last 4 digits of chkg acct #, and basically not asking any questions...just refunding it).
gl everyone

Y'know, not to get into the tinfoil hat realm here but an earlier post got me to thinking...

Suppose FT lost a lot of transaction information in the processor seizures so that they now have no idea of which deposits were processed by the processor that was closed down and that money was then confiscated by the govt., now FT is stuck for that money so they decide that they HAVE to get the money that is owed to them but they simply don't know what was already debited from customers banks and what wasn't. In order to get the monies owed FT reconstructs to the best of their ability a list of possible deposits that might not have been processed and seized but they worry that they might accidentally charge someone twice for a cleared deposit... what to do? Well they decide to contract with a 3rd party to go ahead and process/reprocess those suspect transactions so that they can say later, sorry, not our fault and order the processor to IMMEDIATELY return any double debits which are caught by customers. What they DIDN'T count on was someone like Palimax who is conscientious about other people getting hurt and he breaks the story.

I'm not saying that this is what happened but I DO think something like this might be possible, it would explain a lot (the deafening silence from FT mostly). IMO it IS a plausible scenario. If it turns out that something like this IS what happened it's almost worse than a straight up security breach or rogue payment processor.

Speculation about things like this wouldn't be necessary if FT would just release what they know and keep us updated regularly.

I got charged $100 on April 11th. The description was "****PAYMENTS". Last time I deposited was in January. Called the bank and disputed it. Emailed FT and they emailed back in a couple hours asking for more info. I emailed back and am waiting on a response.

You probably just got your account locked... FT has been having other 'processor issues' since last November delaying the debiting of deposits they took into players accounts, meaning that they credited players with funds online but were unable to process the withdrawals from players bank accounts until just recently, this is probably what happened to you and now that you've disputed the charge FT won't get their money AND your bank might now be wise to the e-check being from an online poker site which they will block from now on... you should have come on 2+2 and did a simple search before disputing the charge, now you might just be screwed, at least as far as using e-checks goes.