Sean,

Since you may be monitoring this thread I do have a particular question that seems extremely pertinent to your previous posts.

WHAT ABOUT THE CLAIMS THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE PMI WITHDRAWLS FROM JAN/FEB/MARCH THAT DO NOT MATCH DEPOSITS MADE WITH FULL TILT IN JULY? How can some people have unmatching withdrawls from PMI if it is a computer error???

True, but this tells me that FT doesn't know the extent of the problem.
As damaging as an announcement may seem, IMO, the damage will be much worse in the coming months if we see more reports of unauthorized PMI-esque transactions occuring after FT declares the matter solved.

Secondly, FT can compare the reports they receive to the reports the bank gives them to ensure they are getting a full and complete accounting from the bank.

Granted, it will open an opportunity for false claimants, and add a huge burden to an already stressed-to-the-max customer service department, but in the end, it will quash the legitimate concerns of players like me who recognize that a banking connection with FT entails unacceptable risk.

It will also lay waste to the ammunition used by gadflies and naysayers who are so quick to denigrate the site that I have faithfully played on for years. How many fish and hobbyists will be persuaded by them?

It's an unenviable and herculean task that has been thrust upon them by causes out of their control, but one that must be done.

Until it happens, not a cent of rake from me.

This response is still pretty unaccetpable.

I personally can't support any licensing efforts that will benefit the company, nor can I support any organizations with ties to FT such as the PPA, until we start seeing evidence of passive refunds and have some assurance that this won't occur in the future.

I tried to get the PPA involved here, but was told it wasn't really their concern as the political arm for players.

A fair resolution, IMO, involves full restitution to 100% of the players involved and an email explanation to 100% of players involved.

Not sure what else can be done besides giving your rake to competitors and not supporting FT licensing efforts until resolved.

I am not sure how you came to this conclusion. They have been having processing issues for the last 9+ months but July is the only month that PMI was sent information to charge us? I am not seeing the continuation here.

Well allow me to elaborate...

Full Tilt has indicated that these charges are the result of July 2010 deposits:

See: FTPSean's post here.
My series of $200 withdraws by PMI matches a $200 deposit I made during that time, and during that time they clearly fumbled a batch of reports, as I've got the matching "Western Clear" mistake email to go along with it.
So, assuming Full Tilt Poker is now providing legitimate information to us as best they have it (and I assume they are, minus whatever their legal department is working on), it's a fairly clear time-line.

• FTP submits a batch of transactions in July.
• [Big Bank] screws those up, but seemingly gets it resolved.
• [Big Bank] later screws up again and sends them to PMI, sending money to parts unknown.
• Some combination of [Big Bank] scewups and/or PMI mishandling keeps us getting billed.

I've posted what I think their next steps need to be.

OUR next steps need to be to contact them about transactions that don't match legitimate July 2010 deposits, and contact them to indicate that we weren't refunded.

I honest believe that, although FTP isn't being transparent enough about this issue, they're being honest to us about what they know - constrained by the limits of what ongoing legal process allows us to read.

Good summary and thanks for the work Palimax.

I think FT is going to eventually refund everyone's money, but Im not at all convinced they have the situation under control as of yet. Months of evasiveness and dismissing this as a non FT issue have undermined credibility.

I still see a nonsequitar here. You are making a major jump because a few transactions had problems in July that this MUST be a sequence of events. I just think your allowing FT off the hook for no apparents reason right now.

I believe that FT is not involved but their is no evidence to the contrary as of now.

I believe that FT is doing their best but once again 0 evidence.

I believe that PMI is a shell that is no longer used but no evidence.

I believe that FT had limited knowledge of what took place, but once again 0 evidence.

I really appreciate what you have done and appreciate that almost you alone kept this issue going. With that said, I think we need to work in the realm of facts right now, because this issue is confusing enough as it is. I am just afraid of providing people with answers (or FT with excuses) with limited information available.

First and foremost, I'm not letting FTP off the hook. I think they need to make a much wider disclosure to the affected parties. They either need to identify exactly all parties involved, or contact the broader "possibly impacted" list, and not just by posting on 2+2.

That said, the scenario above is if you believe that FTP is currently telling us the truth - which I do. They've identified the July deposits as the origin of these mistakes. If that's the case, and you believe FTP, then their bank used PMI in error.

So, our next action is to contact them if, for example, you weren't a FTP customer in July 2010, or transactions from PMI do not match July 2010 timeframe deposits. Mine do. I can't argue with their current line of reasoning. But "ih8pocketas," "sabbaabba," and "spitbubbles" need to review their transactions and DIRECTLY contact FTP, copying Sean and Doug if necessary -- because they don't match.

So, in my case, FTP's story seems to check out. In the case of the people I listed above, they either need to double-check their record, or FTP needs to add a new variable to their investigation -- one that possibly includes another batch of transactions or expands the role that PMI played from unknowing processor to malicious participant.

I know you were forced to close your account to avoid problems, viceroy, and Full Tilt owes you, at least, a full and honest explanation of why the problems occurred on their watch -- even if it was "just" their bank.

Agreed. We shall see. I think we need to work hard on pinpointing the information we have, and find out what the hell is truthful. I think the fact that we have people saying that their july deposits don't match is quite disconcerting. We shall see what the email response will be

Isn't this cutting your nose off to spite your face?

This is happening because of the lack of licensing and murky legal status of online poker in the U.S.. If you think that PokerStars and other sites can't or won't have similar problems with rogue processors, you are being extremely hopeful.

The day there are clearly legal, licensed online poker rooms, you'll be able to expect zero problems processing transactions, until then every site is operating under extreme constraint when dealing with american players.

I believe that FT is doing what they can to resolve this, because it could be very damaging to their business. I also believe their explanation is probably bogus, that they just don't want to admit that a rogue processor (PMI) took advantage of the UEIGEA to defraud FullTilt players, and that because of the UEIGEA FullTilt's options for dealing with it are probably limited.

I believe that's the most likely explanation because FullTilt is a money machine that doesn't need dicy behavior to generate a fountain of cash. Clearly UB was an exception to that belief, but this would be the dumbest possible way to rip off it's customers, far more obvious and a higher liability than superusers.

My question is whether they'll be able to resolve it properly, or whether they will properly refund players if they can't.

Has anyone tried to match the double charges to deposits made on FT EXCLUSIVELY IN JULY? AND what about the reports of charges that don't match any FT deposits at all (this is VERY IMPORTANT to the issue)?

Also, as I've said before, regardless of what FT believes the problem to be, the fact remains that the perception by many of us is that they had a breach of data security and as such they should notify EVERY player of this, at the minimum every player who had transactions with FT in July regardless of who might have handled said transactions.

The above regards mass e-mailing customers to let them know of the problem... My response:

No company in it's right minds would NOT do this when it comes to the absolute safety of it's customer's financial data, it's been done MANY times by banks and credit card companies and other financial services providers. The only way to make something like this go away is FULL DISCLOSURE and then restitution followed by stating and following through on a program to ensure it won't happen again, as I said MANY companies have been through it and survived relatively unscathed but ONLY by taking the above actions.

TLDR, skip if looking for updates

I didn't say don't support licensing, far from it.

I support licensing for reputable sites. A reputable site will make sure that their customers don't get ripped off here through no fault of their own.

I don't think Full Tilt is pocketing the money here. I do think that Full Tilt will eventually compensate all players affected. They've done themselves no favors by waiting so long to address the problem, however.

I have a disagreement with the PPA on this. They feel this isn't an area they can address, I feel as a player organization they need to be involved here, at least behind the scenes making sure FT knows that the only acceptalbe resolution is repaying all customers. I think this is especially true given they have ties with the company.

I'd have a hard time donating to the organization or supporting a licensing plan that would license FT if this weren't resolved.

Just personal feeling, others may disagree of course. I do expect this to get resolved, but the reason FT makes sure all players are paid back is because of potential negative consequences from not doing so. I think US licensing support should be on the table as a consequence.

Edit: repaying all customers, of course, includes contacting all customers to see who is affected.

It seems to me that FT has gone down hill quite a bit in the last six months and I'm surprised that their player base still seems to be the same as it was then (i.e. no consequences to them).

IMO, they should definitely email affected customers if not all of them. And if FT isn't sure who is/was affected, then they need to email everyone. In the past 4 months alone, I have received 2 emails from major banks that I assume were using the same payment processor letting me know that my personal information was breached. It's annoying, but any company with banking information for a large number of people need to be as transparent as possible when it comes to personal information.

THIS, just as I said a couple posts earlier.

This needs more love.

If the transactions by PMI do not match previous deposit amounts to FTP, then it is not a banking error (i.e. they reprocessed an old batch). If a good number of people further validate that the PMI transactions don't match FTP transactions, then that leads me to believe that there was a security breach either at FTP or with one of their payment processors.

There are currently four users on my spreadsheet who claim not to match. 1 is 3rd hand, one hasn't provided additional data. The remaining two:

spitbubbles
ihatepocketas

Need to go over their banking history with a fine tooth comb and contact FTP directly and provide updates to this thread. I also strongly suggest that they look for the "Opps, your transaction descriptor will be Western Clear" email from 8/9/2010 and check the dollar figure on it.

If they don't match, then FTP might have to start looking for a second bank error.

Does anyone post on other poker forums? Ive heard that a thread has been created over at p5s. Any other poker forum sites talking about this issue? Is this being taken seriously? We need to make a concerted effort to get as many people to know about this as possible. The more people the more likely we can determine the

A. the extent
B. whether or not FT is telling the truth.

If we start seeing people who report that the amounts taken by PMI DO NOT match deposits in July, then this could be a bigger problem than we realized.

Maybe a silly question but anyway...

If you deposit with paysafe card and withdraw to a bank account... can this steal hit you?

Thanks!

My (our? the?) current understanding of the situation is that this problem impacts a only group of depositors from July last year who used ACH to deposit.

If we find people outside of that range, the problem is bigger than FTP believes.

Googled ACH and looks like an USA thing for deposits, so other continents should be safe?

this is a lil off topic but it really pisses me off...how come everytime a company makes an error it always works out in their favor and not mine??

ive had unauthorized charges on my account before...how come i have never had unauthorized money put on my account?

when i go to a fast food drive-thru i always seem to get shorted something i ordered...how come i never get anything extra?

ok im done ranting...lol

but seriously how did "PMI" not notice thousands of unaccounted for dollars in their accounts? i bet theyd notice if someone shorted them 50 bux though

I got an extra burrito I didn't order at Taco Bell the other day. I was pretty stoked.

There is no such thing as a reputable site when it comes to money transfers, they are all at risk of having their players ripped off by shady processors, and I doubt there is much the sites can do about it, since they are treated as de facto illegal in the US.

that's the price you pay for Internet poker being unregulated.

I will tell you what the sites can do about it...they could start by releasing the name of the crooked company, send a mass email to all its customers making them aware of the situation, answer emails in a timely fashion, and be up front and honest about the situation

When i site doesnt release the name of the company, doesnt answer emails, gives us a BS copy and paste statement rather than a real response, and doesnt want to make all its customers aware of the situation so they can protect themselves i have a problem trusting that site.

I understand u meant theres nothing the sites can do to prevent it but i thought id give my 2 cents anyway