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Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets

10-30-2014 , 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
Xpost from high stakes:
OP:http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...15&postcount=1

"Cliffs:

-Link to Stars Steve's table of cash game increases: http://i.imgur.com/zZi6n61.jpg

-50/100+ stays the same, 10/20 hu is doubled, 10/20 6max stays the same

-25/50 rake is increased hugely:
HU: +400%
3-4: +33%
5+:+67%

-To figure out how this effects you, go to PT4/My Reports/New Report/Player Report/Player Per Hand, then filter for the relevant site and stakes in the filters tab, for example http://gyazo.com/85916884e0d5177c6357b91ef5fa87a1

-My example: I didn't play 10/20 hu this year (and 50/100+ is unchanged), so I filtered for only my Stars/FTP hands and then looked at 'My rake contributed' by number of players, then (since all pots at high stakes are capped rake) I can just multiply my rake contributed by the factor of the proposed changes (e.g., my hu rake x4). Example of PT4: http://gyazo.com/6743b98c5c146a0734b2cce69b866d29

-Results are that I'll pay around 13.5k more hu, around 7345 more 3-4h, and around 13270 more 5+ handed, for around 34115 more total.

-If you're a hu reg or a high volume 25/50 reg this will effect you much more.

-These numbers are lowballed by a significant amount, since only around 4/5th of my yearly volume is in this database, and there's still 1/6th of the year left. So, an adjusted number would be around $46,600 more in rake per year. I think most people can also expect a higher proportion of 25/50 and a higher volume on Amaya in 2015 due to game conditions.

-My total expected rake was around 100k a year so this is around a 45% increase.

-If you're a 25/50+ reg you can probably expect around +50% rake on average."
just WOW. great post sauce.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 06:43 PM
Idk if Dneg want to be the next one to leave his job at PS, especially since his the highest paid pro so, prolly just gonna agree with it and blablabla, dont think he cares to much about online poker tbh anymore. I do think that if Dneg, Ivey and all the other top status ballers could do what FTP did when they started and start theire own site to "play with the pros" now seems to be a good time to compeat for the poker monopoly with pokerstars since they piss alot of ppl off.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 06:44 PM
DEAR POKERSTARS PLEASE NOTE THAT ASKING ME IF I AM SURE I WANT TO CASH OUT SEVERAL TIMES AND POINTING OUT THAT I WILL LOSE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BENEFIT FROM A CRAPPY DEPOSIT BONUS RELATING TO SPIN AND GOES IS NOT GOOD ADVERTISING. ITS BAD ENOUGH TO KICK US TO THE CURB ITS ANOTHER THING TO THEN PISS ON US AS WE LEAVE.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 06:45 PM
Always had bigger roll then needed on stars cause i fell it family And had faith, now gonna play on strict minimum And play various site, And bye bye sne 2015
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:13 PM
Quote:
I'm a professional player, but I'm also on the industry side. In a recent meeting with several different sites/people (from several of the largest poker brands) they have flat out stated that the days of the online poker pro are over, and it is flat out hurting their bottom line. Some of you think that they will be sad to see you go, but the fact is, they are literally trying to find a way to get some of you winning players off of the site. They know that there are some players who will always beat or try to beat the games, but they are doing everything in their power without flat out kicking off pros to make it more of an even playing field. Doing things like having faster blind structures, smaller starting stacks etc. give the average player a shot to beat pros more frequently. The fact that they are now increasing the rake isn't going to effect or even be noticed by the random person looking to have fun, but it will deter some pros, and in the end, that's their true goal. Not a brag, but last year I made over $200k in profit on ipoker, ftp, and stars combined, and after this year I honestly am probably going to move on with my life. "You're welcome PokerStars"
if they do not want regs - why they simply just not send an email to all wininng regs that we dont want you, dont waste your time, you have no future with us?

To be a reg to the site which does not want you feels like working to a boss which does not want you in a company.

Also why they are giving rakebacks if they dont want regs? Fish does not get much of rakebacks anyway, they would spend rb money for advertising instead which would atract fish.

Quote:
How do you think Microsoft, Visa/MC, Google, etc. make so much $$$$.


It baffles me that so many of you think a multi-billion$ company has no idea what it is doing. They have the top experts in the world and the biggest data possible, believe me, they know what they are doing.

Originally Posted by Jayus View Post

It baffles me that so many of you think a multi-billion$ company has no idea what it is doing. They have the top experts in the world and the biggest data possible, believe me, they know what they are doing.

Lehman Brothers
General Motors
WorldCom
Enron
Chrysler
Full Tilt Poker
Marvel
Blockbuster
I can add Nokia to this list. Few years ago I did not think that nokia will be in such position as it is now anytime soon. But things change. Currently I cannot imagine buying nokia. So maybe there is a hope that stars could get a lesson like those companies.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:20 PM
Essentially comes across as though Amaya have looked at online casinos and thought "These guys make money offering unbeatable games, so why can't we?".
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:21 PM
games are dead on stars, even at 10 or 25nl its reg infested with constant sitting out

been playing there for the last 7 years but decided to leave after hearing of these changes
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by qaarama
This picture is good summary of what stars say in their response here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Michael J
Hello Players,

In recent weeks, PokerStars has made several changes which have upset some players. We’ve heard these complaints and are genuinely listening to the feedback. No one likes higher costs and we appreciate that point of view.

In recent years, we have also heard many high-volume, professional poker players say that the games are tougher now and it’s harder to win than in the past. This is one of the reasons we’ve actually reduced rake previously, which helps the ROI of these players. But that’s not making the games any softer, which is what would really improve ROI.

Instead, we need to invest in new ways to improve the poker economy.

Over recent years, we have been developing ways to grow that we believe will attract new players and reactivate players already in our database. Such initiatives include new poker variants, expansion into other gaming verticals, and new marketing approaches. While we understand that not all players are satisfied with the short-term impact of these changes, the reality is they have the potential to increase poker liquidity.

However, initiatives to attract players require significant investments in areas of marketing, promotions and product innovation.

Additionally, in order to not only secure our continued place as an industry leader across the globe but also to grow ourselves and the game globally, we continue to lobby for the regulation of online poker and attempt to obtain licenses in many newly regulated, locally licensed jurisdictions. We support regulation because we believe it ensures game integrity, player protection, and increases the recognized legitimacy for the game itself. However, there are obviously significant upfront costs to these efforts as well as ongoing costs in the form of gaming license fees and duties.

The funding has to come from many places and it is perfectly reasonable that some of it comes from reducing certain costs, which was the rationale for some of the changes to our VIP program, stemming from a review we began early this year, as well as charging a margin on currency exchange fees. It is also the rationale for our changes to the rake.

If we can grow poker, everyone will benefit. Even our competitors will benefit, because in a rising tide, all ships rise.

Finally, it has to be said that our rake, our currency exchange rates and our VIP program are all more competitive than those of our major competitors.

Sincerely,

Michael Josem
PokerStars Communications Team
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clutchman
I mean I could be totally wrong and please correct me if I am. But doesn't other sites still take atleast the same if not more rake than stars? And there's alot of people winning over there even though that's the case?

I mean ofc everyone here think it sucks, anything else would be out of the question. We're not going to win as much money, period. But I mean to say it's the end of online poker and that it's all over, ur gonna quit and what not. I mean come on. It sounds like you're all a bunch of spoiled kids that's never had a real job. This is the reality of the world we're living in. Conditions for workers gets worse and worse while the big man gets even more money, that's how it works out in the real world. Why should it be different for you?

The terms have been quite ****ing good for a long time and if this makes it so that you can't be profitable anymore then maybe it's about time that you started doing something else.

I read that alot of people say that the rec players won't even notice the changes and that they're doing this to get more rec players in the game. Well that should only help you shouldn't it? I don't know.. I just feel there's alot of bs from alot of people here, you're ****ing naive to think that things will always stay the same.

I get that everyone is mad, that's totally understandable. I agree that they have not handled this in a good way and I don't necessarily agree with the changes. But alot of people were saying some years back that the old players had to adapt to the new game or "go under", and now that it's time for you to adapt and learn how to be profitable with theese new changes you're all like "**** it I'm gonna quit", "I'm withdrawing my broll" and what not. Well go ahead then give up and leave, btw welcome to the world that 99% of the people live in.


TL;DR: Life sucks, learn to deal with it.
+1
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:28 PM
Any sponsored pro that does not speak up against this (unless prohibited by law) are worthless to the community, and should be looked at the same way Joe Sebok is, in my imo.

Hopefully the pokercast will have the nads to make a huge deal out of this next week.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuxxx
games are dead on stars, even at 10 or 25nl its reg infested with constant sitting out

been playing there for the last 7 years but decided to leave after hearing of these changes
And the system is working already. Small winning players relying on rakeback are leaving, making the player pool more saturated with fish who don't care about rake. This means the better regs will become even more profitable even with higher rake.
Rather than the games dying slowly in reg infested pools for everyone, they will die faster for most people, or become more winnable again for the better players. I feel something had to be done.
At least this is my understanding having briefly browsed this thread.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raidalot
What can be done?
Well there's no magic answer - they're doing these things because they can - its basically monopoly abuse. But there are a few things to think about which all help a bit:

(1) Play less on PS and more elsewhere - that will help other sites step up to create a more competitive business (= good for players).

(2) When people ask you where to play, recommend a different site.

(3) If you're a player in the media then say what you think about this when you're interviewed.

(4) For those who are really pissed and have the time/energy, contact the anti-trust authority in your country. (The body whose job it is to protect consumers from monopoly abuse). Tell them one company has become dominant in the industry and, having reduced the completion to an ineffective level + bought and run down the number 2 player, and despite making exceptional margins (38% EBITDA margins) on the business already, is squeezing its customers (you) even harder. They have the power to make PS adopt fair practices and/or split itself (eg sell Tilt to a real competitor). Even if they don't take short term action Ican guarantee that if they start sniffing around PS/Amaya will be very careful about doing anything else.

Your authority is listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_regulator


(5) If you're a member of the PPA, tell them you want them to adopt a policy of lobbying for US deregulation without allowing Stars back in for period (eg 10 years) as that is now in the interests of the players. (Sadly I already know what PPAs answer will be but it won't hurt to make the point).

(6) Support actions like mass sit-outs. Don't just expect everyone else to do it or take a short-term view.

(7) When PS next send you one of those surveys, say what you think.

(8) If the other sites make some serious efforts to build their biz then support them.

CHECK OUT NR 4

ITS ESPECIALLY POWERFUL IN EUROPEAN UNION, SHOULD TAKE YOU ONLY ABOUT 15MINUTES TO FINALLY PRESS SEND ON YOUR COMPLAINT EMAIL


Im not sure if its right to do it now or when they have actually raised the rake.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:44 PM
hmmm maybe i am missing something here but if we pay more rake does that not mean we will earn more VPP then we currently do at the same stakes? = more FPP to exchange for cash, So does it not even it self out if your cash grinding for SNE??
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokern1nja
And the system is working already. Small winning players relying on rakeback are leaving, making the player pool more saturated with fish who don't care about rake. This means the better regs will become even more profitable even with higher rake.
Rather than the games dying slowly in reg infested pools for everyone, they will die faster for most people, or become more winnable again for the better players. I feel something had to be done.
At least this is my understanding having briefly browsed this thread.
What hurt the games imo was country segregation (something for the most part out of stars control), most of the micro tables are full of solid eastern european regs. I mean if I was them I would play too considering how low there wages are. I don't see how certain regs leaving is gonna change that. And who relies on rakeback playing 10nl, you get nothing back. I relied on my winrate
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clutchman
I mean I could be totally wrong and please correct me if I am. But doesn't other sites still take atleast the same if not more rake than stars? And there's alot of people winning over there even though that's the case?

I mean ofc everyone here think it sucks, anything else would be out of the question. We're not going to win as much money, period. But I mean to say it's the end of online poker and that it's all over, ur gonna quit and what not. I mean come on. It sounds like you're all a bunch of spoiled kids that's never had a real job. This is the reality of the world we're living in. Conditions for workers gets worse and worse while the big man gets even more money, that's how it works out in the real world. Why should it be different for you?

The terms have been quite ****ing good for a long time and if this makes it so that you can't be profitable anymore then maybe it's about time that you started doing something else.

I read that alot of people say that the rec players won't even notice the changes and that they're doing this to get more rec players in the game. Well that should only help you shouldn't it? I don't know.. I just feel there's alot of bs from alot of people here, you're ****ing naive to think that things will always stay the same.

I get that everyone is mad, that's totally understandable. I agree that they have not handled this in a good way and I don't necessarily agree with the changes. But alot of people were saying some years back that the old players had to adapt to the new game or "go under", and now that it's time for you to adapt and learn how to be profitable with theese new changes you're all like "**** it I'm gonna quit", "I'm withdrawing my broll" and what not. Well go ahead then give up and leave, btw welcome to the world that 99% of the people live in.


TL;DR: Life sucks, learn to deal with it.
you're totally wrong buoy!!!
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 07:58 PM
(4) For those who are really pissed and have the time/energy, contact the anti-trust authority in your country. (The body whose job it is to protect consumers from monopoly abuse). Tell them one company has become dominant in the industry and, having reduced the completion to an ineffective level + bought and run down the number 2 player, and despite making exceptional margins (38% EBITDA margins) on the business already, is squeezing its customers (you) even harder. They have the power to make PS adopt fair practices and/or split itself (eg sell Tilt to a real competitor). Even if they don't take short term action Ican guarantee that if they start sniffing around PS/Amaya will be very careful about doing anything else.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:12 PM
I dont play on stars anymore but i will tell all may recreational poker friends to avoid stars #payingitforward
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:16 PM
This is Bull****. Stars are basically saying that its ok to increase rake because it will help them put money into marketing. But the sad truth is that you put ALL of this marketing money on the fraud that is Spin N Gos which has rakes and variances that are so high that they are almost impossible to beat. At the same time these Spin N gos also hides the rake, the only way for a player to find out about the rake is to start one and click "lobby" it says nothing about the rake when you register.

So please don´t tell us that you are using the increased rake for marketing to make the poker world better. You are using the increased rake to promote a casino campaign which is likely to result in even more countries banning poker.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:18 PM
I think this just makes PokerStars more similar in cost to Carbon poker.
If you complain about stars raising their fees and you still play at Bovada, you are mildly ******ed because comparing their fees, Bovada is way higher.

I cannont immediately find the data for the fees of the cash games, but I would bet it is similar to these comparisons for the SNG's


HU hyper turbo SNG prices:
Poker stars bovada Carbon 888poker
$30(-.75rake) $30+$1.80 rake $33 -.63rake $25(-.75rake)
$200(-4 rake) $200+$10rake $215 -$4.11 rake $100($3 rake)
$1.50(-.07rake) $1+ .10 rake $2.20 -.06rake $1 -.04 rake


Looking at these comparisons, It appears the stated increases are going to be only be slightly better at carbonpoker.

I don't like the news about the increases, but doing comparison shopping in the SNG category, Stars is still beating 3 other major sites.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:18 PM
win2day unlike pokerstars with (positive) changes for the start of 2015(like new software)
having played exclusively on stars for like 3 years now i'm probably moving a lot of volume over there next year
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:20 PM
All this bull makes no sence to me...zero.

After much thought I am convinced that this is good for no one, including poker as a game and even including PS as a company!

Hypers, KOs, hyper satellites...SNGs in general...MTTs, Cash.....actually, it seems as if all of online poker is deliberately being destroyed.

Sure, I can understand a company increasing profits on the backs of their most loyal customers, with no moral/human values, strictly looking to increase net profit...this is surely nothing new.
But chasing away you're highest volume grinders seems ******ed and looks like a recipe for destruction.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:21 PM
I am a SNG player, and i know from experience in my games that 7of9 or 4of6 players are regs/pros(9of9 and 6of6 on bad days) from who a good portion of will stop playing in the long run because of changes like this one.
And from what i hear, its no different in cash games.

see bottom of this link-
http://www.bluff.com/news/pokerstars...ffected-61919/
Here they are saying they will make ROIs higher and games softer by chasing away regs via rake changes (and surely rb changes as well in near future imo).
Arent these players...the pros...the ones always driving the action? Sitting first in empty tables making them fill quicker...and generaly just paying tones in rake daily?

Sure it can be argued most regs will continue playing even after these changes( but for now only)...but a lot wont eventualy....and a lot of players that were considering going pro will now opt for a different route instead(also costing them future bucks).

Its hard to believe a corporation of this size is looking at things in such a short term way.
I guess if this is the last change PS does it will more or less be business as usual...and poker will have a few years left in its dwindling life span. But the way and passe in witch they are presenting these devastating changes hint that there will be more changes in years or months to come.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boodabor
Here's some math to show how these changes affect Hyper sng SNE grinders:

At the $100 level of HU hypers, rake is going up by $.37

The new structure would require you to play 80808 games to reach SNE. ($2.25 * 5.5 vpp per $ * 80808 games = 1 million vpps)

80808 * -$0.37 = -$29899

So someone currently playing $100 HU Hyper SNGs who makes exactly SNE each year will make about 30k less under the new rake structure.


For the $100 level of 6max hyper satellites, rake is going up by $1.17.

The new structure would require you to play 58089 games to reach SNE. ($3.13 rake * 5.5 vpp per $ * 58089 games = 1 million vpps)

58089 * -$1.17 = -$67964

So someone currently playing $100 6max hyper satellites who makes exactly SNE each year will make about 68k less under the new rake structure.

edit: simplified math
These numbers are not correct. I'm watching the game so can't do it right now, but I know this isn't right.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:23 PM
I see some people claiming party should try to save online poker. Are they not 10x as shady as amayastars? I remember them trying (or maybe they even did) to incorporate horrible changes these past few years to alienate winning players.

How is 888?
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote
10-30-2014 , 08:25 PM
seriously, how ringgames supposed to start at 0.25/0.50-5/10 PL/NL with this rake HU ? instaed of rewarding the 2 regulars starting the table/s they punish them so heavily ?!?!?!? Recreational players DON'T start ringgames !!! What's wrong with you AMAYA ???

*** The HU scene is officially dead.

Last edited by VitoT; 10-30-2014 at 08:42 PM.
Announcement:  PokerStars Changes to Rake, Spin & Go Prizes, and Battle of the Planets Quote

      
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