from wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.

Insurance
Because contracts of insurance have many features in common with wagers, insurance contracts are often distinguished under law as agreements in which either party has an interest in the "bet-upon" outcome beyond the specific financial terms. E.g.: a “bet” with an insurer on whether one's house will burn down is not gambling, but rather insurance — as the homeowner has an obvious interest in the continued existence of his/her home independent of the purely financial aspects of the "bet" (i.e., the insurance policy). Nonetheless, both insurance and gambling contracts are typically considered aleatory contracts under most legal systems, though they are subject to different types of regulation.
There is generally legislation requiring that the odds in gaming devices are statistically random, to prevent manufacturers from making some high-payoff results impossible. Since these high-payoffs have very low probability, a house bias can quite easily be missed unless checking the odds carefully.[8]

Shouldn't they ban insurance as well as there are elements which constitute wagers ( premiums you pay on a monthly / annual / lump sum basis )


Insurance is the wagering of premiums on typical the chance that you would not suffer from some condition thats detrimental to your income with the primary intent of getting a payout in the event that you do.

What are the definitions of gambling ?

Sorry, I read the US Executive Order dated 2009 and ASSUMED (yes, I know) that the same rights INTERPOL has currently within the US can happen anywhere they have jusridiction. Through this assumption, I have further assumed that the US was just 'catching up with Europe and the rest of the world' with this order from the date and who signed it. The US lawmakers are constantly trying to state European laws to pattern our legal system after, hence the second seperation assumption. I was also unaware that they could not directly arrest people, but are more like desk detectives, rather than a police force of thier own. Too many movies and shows misrepresenting them, I guess. Now I know. Thank you.

I've said for years that the stock market is the same thing as gambling. Yet the stock market is totally legal, and gambling is totally not (in most cases).

so is the lotto (which is biggest joke in the world) and pony racing. but w/e.

Come on guys there is a Fraud investigation going on. How you and how much you were able to defraud the credit card companies by funding your account on FT and PS is the basis of the Gov's case. So of course they have to free everyone's assets. If they allowed everyone to withdraw money, what evidence would they have you were playing real money??? I know most online players are college dropouts, but this should be pretty damn easy to understand!

Once the Gov has all the information on how much and what accounts...made deposits, then they will decide if and how much money can be returned.

True. True. But I bet they won't pay interest for keeping our money or pay us a rake on each transaction for the games they played with it. hehehe

I understand they will make a stand this time and seek "exoneration" from the Friday charges (at least FT?). Doesn't leaving U.S. operations make the "it's all legal" stance seem weak? They stayed for years in WA because of ongoing litigation; why would they decide to quit offering games to funded players if the strategy is to fight in court? What other damage could have been inflicted because of staying?

For those who haven't seen it yet, go to the fight back thread here please:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...hread-1021812/

This might be a dumb question but I have seen it mentioned here and there with no real response. As a US citizen, can I fly to a different country, such as Canada, and cash out my acct to a local bank and then wire it to a US bank acct?

Probably not. You would need something like a green card from another country. Cause to change your address on stars you need to send them an ID. Not sure about ft but overall not going to work.

Everyone needs to go this site...we have never had this many people that have such an interest in getting this problem solved.

NOW IS THE TIME TO ACT PEOPLE! MAKE A DECISION NOW IF YOU ARE GOING TO HELP PITCH IN AND SOLVE THE PROBLEM OR BE ONE OF THE MANY SHEEP IN THIS COUNTRY THAT CONTINUALLY HAVE THEIR RIGHTS TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO LAZY OR TOO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

http://www.pokerxanadu.com/actionplan.htm

ACTION PLAN FOR US POKER PLAYERS

1. Starting at 9am on Monday, April 18, 2011, call each and every number listed below*. If a number is busy, skip to next one and return to skipped ones later.

2. Continue phoning through 5pm or until you have reached every number.

3. On the next day (Tuesday) starting at 9am, finish calling the list if you didn’t finish it the previous day, then start over and call them all again.

4. Continue in this manner every day of the week, through Friday, April 22nd at 5pm. Try to reach every number every day of the week.

5. Use your social networks to get as many other people as possible to do the same thing by sending them this message:

Please help the poker players of America regain their rights from our government’s attack on our freedom by following the action plan shown here:
http://www.PokerXanadu.com/actionplan.htm

*Note: If you don’t have the free time to call them, call the ones from your state first. But the general idea is to let all our Congressional representatives know that poker players across the country are outraged and want their freedom back. This is best accomplished by inundating them with calls, regardless of which state you are from.

PDF of this plan available here: http://www.PokerXanadu.com/actionplan.pdf

WHAT TO SAY ON THE PHONE TO THE GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATIVES (or their assistants):

· The Department of Justice’s attack on Internet poker is a clear attack on the rights of American poker players.

· The US government must ensure that the money American citizens have in their Internet poker accounts is not jeopardized by the DOJ’s actions.

· The US government should be protecting American citizens by allowing Internet poker sites to become licensed and regulated under US law, rather than taking away citizens’ freedom to choose to play online poker for fun or for a livelihood.

PHONE NUMBERS TO CALL

Southern District of New York, US Attorney General Preet Bharara (212) 637-2600

DOJ Office of the Attorney General Public Comment Line - 202-353-1555

White House Phone Numbers Comments: 202-456-1111

Alabama

Residents of Alabama are represented in Congress by 2 Senators and 7 Representatives.

Member Name
DC Phone

Senator Richard Shelby (R- AL)
202-224-5744

Senator Jeff Sessions (R- AL)
202-224-4124


Representative Jo Bonner (R - 01)
202-225-4931

Representative Martha Roby (R - 02)
202-225-2901

Representative Mike Rogers (R - 03)
202-225-3261

Representative Robert B. Aderholt (R - 04)
202-225-4876

Representative Mo Brooks (R - 05)
202-225-4801

Representative Spencer Bachus (R - 06)
202-225-4921

Representative Terri A. Sewell (D - 07)
202-225-2665

These are just the phone numbers for Alabama, follow the link and find numbers for your state. IMO, the more you played online, the more you should put into this. If you played 8 hours a day online, make calls for 2 hours a day. If you played for 2 hours a day, make calls for 30 minutes a day.

IF WE ALL PITCH IN AND DO THIS, IT WILL WORK! DO NOT LISTEN TO THE TROLLS WHO SAY NONE OF THIS WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THEY ARE WRONG. EVERYONE CALL AND FILL OUT THIS LINK TO THE PPA TO WRITE LETTERS TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN/SENATORS (it takes 3 minutes tops). TIME TO QUIT COMPLAINING AND START TAKING ACTION!

http://capwiz.com/pokerplayersalliance/home/

I don't care about the Full Tilt and Pokerstars lawsuit, it is beyond our control except for the fact that we need to demand assurance from DOJ and our representatives that we will get our money back, as we had no idea these were the measures that the processors were taking. Other than that, our main motive is simple.

WE WANT CLEAR AND SIMPLE LEGISLATION BY OUR REPRESENTATIVES MAKING ONLINE POKER CLEARLY LEGAL. MOST INTELLIGENT LEGAL MINDS CLAIMED IT ALREADY WAS, AND FTP AND STARS SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO RESORT TO THIS.

WE CAN ONLY ATTEMPT TO CHANGE THAT WHICH WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE. WE CAN MAKE A LAW GET PASSED IF WE ALL SPEAK UP....RIGHT NOW THEREFORE OUR OBJECTIVE IS SIMPLE, FOLLOW THE ACTION PLAN.

SERIOUSLY QUOTE IT EVERY PAGE.....TAKE THE BICKERING TO THE POLITICS OR PHILOSOPHY THREAD...... QUOTE AND PUT +1 AFTER IT IF YOU ARE ON BOARD WITH THE ACTION PLAN, AND MAKE SURE SOMEONE IS HERE TO KEEP IT FLOWING...I WILL BE W/O MY COMPUTER FOR NEXT 24 HOURS, BUT HAVE ALREADY COPIED THE NUMBERS TO THE REPRESENTATIVES IN MY PHONE AND WILL CALL VIRTUALLY ALL DAY TOMORROW.


WHO IS WITH ME?, TIME TO LET YOUR VOICES BE HEARD!

I don't like your first talking point - I don't believe it's accurate. OTOH I really like the way you have phrased your last talking point however.

I posted this in the fight back thread, but will re-iterate it here edited to add your last talking point.

As I've stated before: Talking points or public displays should first draw attention to "current online poker legal restrictions are a form of internet censorship and repression" (this IMO will appeal to a much larger support base than simply saying we need to legalize online poker.)

Thus I would re-phrase and re-order your conversation, starting with the premise of internet repression and leading to how and when you can get your money.

1. Current UIGEA restrictions on US citizens that are part of the online poker community are a form of internet censorship and repression. Much of the rest of the world including Russia, Germany, Poland, China even North Korea have more internet freedom than the USA
2. Online poker is not illegal for individuals living in the US (where it is not specifically prohibited on a state or local level)
3. The US government should be protecting American citizens by allowing Internet poker sites to become licensed and regulated under US law, rather than taking away citizens’ freedom to choose to play online poker for fun or for a livelihood. UIGEA should be repealed.
4. the recent DOJ action based on UIGEA has either directly seized monetary assets that belong to me or has prohibited my ability to retrieve these monetary assets. I have not broken any laws and the seized assets do not belong to the entities or individuals being indicted by the DOJ.
6. Three questions that I need answered:
How do I request that these assets be returned to me?
when am I going to be allowed to make this request?
how long will it take to have these request processed?

Name one way in which North Korea has more internet freedom than the USA. No one in N. Korea except govt bigwigs even has internet.

Perhaps this how bad information is spread over the internet - I got that outta one of the threads here. my bad - below restated without N. Kor reference:

1. Current UIGEA restrictions on US citizens are a form of internet censorship and repression. Much of the rest of the world including Russia, Germany, Poland, even China have more internet freedom with respect to online poker than we do in the USA.
2. This is despite online poker is not illegal for individuals living in the US (where it is not specifically prohibited on a state or local level)
3. The US government should be protecting American citizens by allowing Internet poker sites to become licensed and regulated under US law, rather than taking away citizens’ freedom to choose to play online poker for fun or for a livelihood. UIGEA should be repealed.
4. the recent DOJ action based on UIGEA has either directly seized monetary assets that belong to me or has prohibited my ability to retrieve these monetary assets. I have not broken any laws and the seized assets do not belong to the entities or individuals being indicted by the DOJ.
6. Three questions that I need answered:
How do I request that these assets be returned to me?
when am I going to be allowed to make this request?
how long will it take to have these request processed?

I think I'd drop China too. By no measure do they have more internet freedom than the US. You could add AUS or something. But other than that you're good to go.

Agree 100%
PPA should solidly align behind Corporate Gaming taking over the current outlaw sites. As the corporations "saved" Las Vegas from the mob, so they should do with online poker.
That is, if their interests are legality to play, safe games, variety of providers.

No.

To understand why, put yourself in the bank's position and consider what would happen to your "know your customer" policies if it were legal to deceive banks about the nature of a transaction.

Any chance that a flood of complaint forms sent to the DOJ would do anything? Technically all of us that just got our money frozen are victims of DOJ actions.

doj could give a ****.
politicians will listen, if you have voters or money behind you.

I don't get why people are in denial. The sites, as we have known them, are gone. Right or wrong, Doj will get it's pound of flesh.
The only hope is that you can convince someone to intercede on your behalf to make the players whole. Either politicians, or new owners of the sites. I would count on new owners who want customers.

Well the complaints go to a different district than the one that is doin everything. Not like we're gonna save the sites. Just thinkin it might help us get our money back faster.

Edit: nevermind. Just read the complaint form. It's not's to help victims, it's for suggesting "punishment" for DOJ employees

Um the sites still serve outsidethe US.

"as we have know them"

Is it normal for me to still be able to sit down and play real $ on
both Full Tilt and Absolute? Is this a cable provider issue?

Only stars is blocking me..

Hey, started to play on full a few months ago, en i also play on stars, i was planning on buying tabelninja for both, but i dont now if that is still a good idee.

Either they close down, or they dont accept americans anymore, wich dont bring enough volume at all times for grinders like me,..

any thoughts?

also what will happen with holdemmanager? en just bought sng wizard as well, this sucks big time,...

****ing american goverment shows there are the criminals again, based how the country was founded in the first place,....

My best for all the american grinders, .. en another thing, were do all american players play now???

*really stupid question warning*

this may not be possible or practical from a business perspective, but legally could online poker sites open kiosks in malls all across the US for poker players to make cash deposits and/or withdrawals?